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Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

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Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#491

Post by cm277 »

thephyber wrote: post #437
cm277 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

You have changed the definition of "black markets" to something else. A black market requires illegality. You are conflating "rules" of contracts and "rules" of law. I agree that Apple "even is party to transactions". I think that's the common problem with Google (eg. Froogle / Google Shopping), Amazon (eg. Amazon Basics), and Apple (apps that compete and undercut 3rd party apps or which don't have to adhere to the s…

Hm, fair point: the App Store isn't illegal, so "black market" is pushing the term too far. However, the laws in the App Store aren't controlled by a political/state entity: they are imposed by Apple themselves. The fact that they are legal under US law, doesn't make them legitimate: democratic control (via regulation) does.

So I guess my point was this: past a certain size / power concentration a market/platform has to have regulations that are answerable to a democratic/political authority, not to a private party. That's regulation, isn't?

"Grey market" is taken, so how about "brown market"? :)

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#492

Post by cm277 »

paulcole wrote: post #453
cm277 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

Doesn’t that make Amazon and the supermarket down the street black markets, too?

The supermarket is very tightly regulated, so not at all... Amazon though... :)

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#493

Post by cm277 »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #429
cm277 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

Except for it to be a black market illegality needs to be established and it isn't clandestine - the rules are freely available and there are other markets (android) available for apps. This is a poor analogy. I am still waiting for a real argument on HN as to what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive or illegal. Still have not found one.

They are extracting rent from a market that's now too big and powerful and are enforcing rules that do not have political (as in citizens') legitimacy.

They have obviously won their market position fair-and-square and their rules aren't illegal. But extracting taxes ('rent' in economist-speak) from other companies just because they were successful at some point in the past is uncompetitive behavior now.

Same goes for Amazon/Google: extracting rent from a market-dominant position should be illegal (it isn't) regardless of how that position was won.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#494

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

cm277 wrote: post #493
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for it to be a black market illegality needs to be established and it isn't clandestine - the rules are freely available and there are other markets (android) available for apps. This is a poor analogy. I am still waiting for a real argument on HN as to what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive or illegal. Still have not found one.

They are extracting rent from a market that's now too big and powerful and are enforcing rules that do not have political (as in citizens') legitimacy. They have obviously won their market position fair-and-square and their rules aren't illegal. But extracting taxes ('rent' in economist-speak) from other companies just because they were successful at some point in the past is uncompetitive behavior now . Same goes fo…

Once again - they are not market dominant, they do not have the largest marketshare of phone users. This is false.

> and are enforcing rules that do not have political (as in citizens') legitimacy.

This is basically saying to me "yea you're right, it isn't illegal, but I don't like it!!" They're charging for a service, there is nothing unfair about it. Frankly, it could be even higher.

> Same goes for Amazon/Google: extracting rent from a market-dominant position should be illegal (it isn't) regardless of how that position was won.

Google is a clear monopoly - they dominate the market. Amazon does not - Wal-Mart, Target, are all viable competitors. BestBuy, NewEgg, Ebay, etc.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#495

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

jpdus wrote: post #457
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? They provide a great service to consumers - a store to get applications easily. They provide a great service to devs - a store to get consumers to see and buy their products. Why is 30% unfair? A company charging a certain percentage for something is neither unfair or anti-competitive. You need to develop your argument further.

Because - at least in Apples case - customer and developers have no alternative and no choice. There isn't a market setting a fair price for Apple's "service". You can't get on iPhones (for which people paid already!) without the App Store. You aren't asked if you want to pay for that "service" and there aren't any competitors. If you want to have an app, Apple owns 30% of your business, even if they didn't generate…

> customer and developers have no alternative and no choice.

They have Android, which dominates the market.

I get it, Apple Bad! Bad Keyboards! No Upgrades! Bad Bad Bad! And yet people time and time again want iPhones over Android - because they like the way the App Store is, they like iOS, they don't want malware on their phones that is rampant on Androids. Opening it up will be WORSE FOR DEVS.

> This is the same as with store owners who have to hand over part of their earnings as danegeld to some gangs controlling their neighborhood.

No, it's the same as store owners who have to pay higher rent to be on a busy street. Which isn't illegal.

> I don't get how anyone who stands up for freedom of information, a free internet and a fair economy can still own an iPhone without developing schizophrenia..

There are plenty of avenues for information - the iPhone controls apps - but the rules of engagement are clear and 2 million apps managed to get on the app store. If you can't, that's your problem.

Still waiting for a real argument on here.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#496

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

acuozzo wrote: post #458
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for it to be a black market illegality needs to be established and it isn't clandestine - the rules are freely available and there are other markets (android) available for apps. This is a poor analogy. I am still waiting for a real argument on HN as to what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive or illegal. Still have not found one.

> I am still waiting for a real argument on HN as to what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive or illegal. Apple and Google are engaging in obvious tacit collusion. QED.

Google offers clear alternatives to their play store.

Apple offers a closed experience, which is what my parents want. They don't want to be tricked into downloading malware through some crappy facebook post.

This is depriving the market of a valid product, it's unfair to people who want this product, so that devs can make more money, and Epic can rip off more kids for a skin on a gun.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#497

Post by murgindrag »

thephyber wrote: post #437
cm277 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

You have changed the definition of "black markets" to something else. A black market requires illegality. You are conflating "rules" of contracts and "rules" of law. I agree that Apple "even is party to transactions". I think that's the common problem with Google (eg. Froogle / Google Shopping), Amazon (eg. Amazon Basics), and Apple (apps that compete and undercut 3rd party apps or which don't have to adhere to the s…

Man. Warren would have been the perfect VP pick.

Bloomberg/Warren 2020!

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#498

Post by norswap »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

In so many words, you've just described an oligarchy!

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#499

Post by 908B64B197 »

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

From working with Canadians, it always supprised me how they seemed fine with these non-competitive practices for Telecom and Banking. It seems that they are systematically over-paying for what they are getting.

Maybe it's a form of pride to have the "Canadian alternative"? Or they feel they couldn't really compete with the US/Europeans?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#500

Post by thephyber »

cm277 wrote: post #491
thephyber wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have changed the definition of "black markets" to something else. A black market requires illegality. You are conflating "rules" of contracts and "rules" of law. I agree that Apple "even is party to transactions". I think that's the common problem with Google (eg. Froogle / Google Shopping), Amazon (eg. Amazon Basics), and Apple (apps that compete and undercut 3rd party apps or which don't have to adhere to the s…

Hm, fair point: the App Store isn't illegal, so "black market" is pushing the term too far. However, the laws in the App Store aren't controlled by a political/state entity: they are imposed by Apple themselves. The fact that they are legal under US law, doesn't make them legitimate: democratic control (via regulation) does. So I guess my point was this: past a certain size / power concentration a market/platform has…

I can't follow your first paragraph. You are redefining words left and right.

App stores don't create "laws"; they have contractually enforced rules.

Regulations are laws if the regulatory body was granted the power to make regulations.

Your use of legitimate confuses me; I can't grok your intention.

The FTC has the directive and authority to regulate commerce. If Apple is violating an US law or an FTC regulation, the FTC should prosecute. Otherwise this discussion should be focused on what laws (if any) you think need to be created.

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