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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#491

Post by BuckRogers »

tathougies wrote: post #438
theohofpleasure wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't entirely agree either. I was just expanding on the idea. However, when there is no employee, such as in the example you gave, there is also no profit. What you have called profit is actually your wage. Do I make a profit when I go to work for a company? No, I earn a wage.

You can easily think of your wage minus your yearly expenditures as your profit, which, if you're doing things right, should be positive.

It's never positive as your life is worth far more than those wages in all cases. That's why no one can be considered overpaid, or we would limit payment to CEOs. Thus wages can only be considered at best, a trade.

That's why I asserted that profits are nothing more than unpaid wages. Since it's objectively a trade of your life for wages, paying others less than the value you produced is simply not valuing human life. The worst sort of theft.

For your example, it doesn't hold up because most people only make enough to live, there's nothing to optimize other than going "full ramen". While others have far more than necessary for basic food, shelter and medical care. Those who are just-surviving aren't doing anything wrong, when an economic ponzi scheme simply doesn't value their life by paying them less than the value they produce.

Re: The Real Class War

#492

Post by pas »

bad-joke wrote: post #331
pas wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertising encourages people to spend, even in some times to do it by going into debt. This in turn leads to more economic activity, more widgets ordered, which in theory should mean we can reap benefits of economies of scale, we can better amortize costs, etc. Which leads to R&D and innovation, which helps technological change, which leads to a more efficient economy, which leads to more surplus, which means more w…

> which helps technological change, which leads to a more efficient economy You made a leap of logic here. The technological innovations in finance directly contributed to a more volatile economy that crashed and inflicted massive losses on huge swaths of the global population, many of whom never recovered.

Singling out one causal chain in one period while ignoring the rest is not a good way to weigh "progress".

Yes the lack of oversight led to a crash, the lack of social safety net prolonged it, and the lack of effective adult education keeps people chasing low-income jobs and in poverty.

And lo and behold Basel III was signed, now systemic risk analysis is regular part of the financial sector checks, even if the current US administration tries to (and succeeded in) roll back some of these protections. That's the rent seeking regression. (And many people are happy for it, for they don't understand these processes, but they also don't trust "technological change" and economics, because it took their jobs - which is an understandable sentiment, even if incorrect.)

Re: The Real Class War

#493

Post by partyboat1586 »

FussyZeus wrote: post #385
snowwrestler wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never heard of the labor movement? The grassroots activism by working class people that forced the federal government to develop an entire arm of federal law, with its own Cabinet-level agency, to protect them from the professional managerial class? How have you spent your career working in public policy circles and come away with so little understanding of what grassroots activism is, and the impact it has…

The working class has been satiated since the times of such strikes and accomplishments with tax breaks, easy access to credit and a booming economic growth rate that was long-term unsustainable. Keeping in mind both parties are at fault in that trade: the politicians for being willing to ply the electorate with unsustainable economic policies to ensure votes, and the voters for being so shortsighted and naive to thi…

Do tell, how will the world look different without infinite growth? What is your vision?

Re: The Real Class War

#494

Post by untangle »

> The real class war is between the 0.1 percent and (at most) the 10 percent—or, more precisely, between elites primarily dependent on capital gains and those primarily dependent on profes­sional labor.

There is a sharp contrast here, but I don't think it'll be the basis for a war – figuratively or otherwise. But this divide deserves more illumination.

Re: The Real Class War

#495

Post by Discombulator »

spyckie2 wrote: post #478

> This [billionaire] class has no idea what to do with its wealth, much less the power that results from it. It can only withdraw and extract, socially and economically, while the political justifications for its existence melt away. Would love to hear his perspective on Bill Gates. It's very interesting to think about this because most people pursue wealth for this very reason - to be freed from constraints of respo…

Bill Gates is in my view deserving of every praise for his civic engagement, as well as a few others (e.g., those who have agreed to the pledge to give away much of their wealth). But I don’t think this is common. Just from the public statements of many billionaires, it seems that many do not think they have any civic obbligation at all.

Re: The Real Class War

#496

Post by raxxorrax »

motohagiography wrote: post #274
tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

To +1 one this: Having spent a great deal of time consulting to government, in addition to working in media, but with a deep background in tech, the managerial class of people making policy have a revolving door to the universities, which are seized by faddish ideas as often as the elected representatives. Many of these policy people actually come to hate technologists because they find their more chauvinistic plans…

Pretty much what I expected. Still concerning though that these insecurities don't seem to phase that many people.

I think colloquially it is called being severely butthurt. Not a phenomenon restricted to the US.

Re: The Real Class War

#497

Post by Iv »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

I used to diss protests that accomplish nothing but then I realized what their real use was: to connect people into doing actual stuff. To open a place for discussion on a specific issue, sometimes in the media, but at least in the street, for few hours, with like-minded people.

If you are rich serious people concerned over an issue, you create a forum or gather a summit. If you are poor, or rather, let's be realistic, middle-class, then you do a protest. It's rent-free, it filters out people who can't be bothered to move from the couch and the nay-sayers, it shows a wide range of groups with varied interests.

Protests are the first step in making policy change, but it takes several bounces before it affects people in DC.

Re: The Real Class War

#498

Post by rimliu »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #463
mensetmanusman wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth increases the gap. The only fix is working with other countries on inheritance tax and anti-tax evasion schemes.

Where is the growth? The Federal Reserve pumping easy money into the economy doesn’t count. The author completely missed the point as to why capital is misallocated. True growth is when productivity increases, prices fall, and capital investment increases. It’s easy to sell 10 dollar bills for 8 dollars a piece. In what world is that considered growth?

When prices fall it is called deflation. The investment then decreases as well, because who in the sane mind would invest into something that is getting less valuable as time passes?

Re: The Real Class War

#499

Post by raxxorrax »

noelsusman wrote: post #387
blurbleblurble wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that Hillary Clinton got nominated in 2016. Because too many politicians are completely out of touch with the movements, conditions and perspectives of working people. Where I live, grassroots organizers are doing all the hard work. I'm not talking about protesters. I'm talking about people who are building and connecting organically, who are facilitating workshops and popular education sessions,…

Hillary won working class voters in the 2016 primary by a comfortable margin. +28 with non-college-educated voters and +13 with voters under $50,000 in income.

Against Trump, but I doubt that is a reliable metric to determine real support.

Re: The Real Class War

#500

Post by spyckie2 »

Discombulator wrote: post #495
spyckie2 wrote: post #478

> This [billionaire] class has no idea what to do with its wealth, much less the power that results from it. It can only withdraw and extract, socially and economically, while the political justifications for its existence melt away. Would love to hear his perspective on Bill Gates. It's very interesting to think about this because most people pursue wealth for this very reason - to be freed from constraints of respo…

Bill Gates is in my view deserving of every praise for his civic engagement, as well as a few others (e.g., those who have agreed to the pledge to give away much of their wealth). But I don’t think this is common. Just from the public statements of many billionaires, it seems that many do not think they have any civic obbligation at all.

It's why I'm curious to see his opinions on this matter.

The author pointed out the problem but didn't say much about the solution. I was wondering if his discourse on those who aren't the problem would yield insights.

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