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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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81–90 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#81

Post by goatinaboat »

_bxg1 wrote: post #16
larnmar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the working class turns to radicalism what makes you think it will be the kind of radicalism you agree with? It’s more likely to be the kind of radicalism you find terrifying.

The kind of radicalism that raises my taxes to keep our country from falling apart is the kind I'm fully on-board with. Or, better yet, taxes the massive, useless dragon-hoards of the 0.1%. But I'm a team player; I don't mind if mine go up too.

The kind of radicalism that raises my taxes to keep our country from falling apart

How is that “radicalism”? It’s a common mainstream opinion that people do often vote for. In fact I would say that radicalism starts with options that aren’t even represented in mainstream politics.

Re: The Real Class War

#82

Post by pas »

cousin_it wrote: post #61
kortilla wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> political system to organise itself to reward work done How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t?

General rule: work spent on getting better at a zero-sum game is valuable to the player doing it, but if all players do it, the result is waste. Example 1: companies spending on advertising to increase their share of a fixed market. Example 2: managers hiring more people for their team to look more important within the larger company. Example 3: if social status is determined by looking tougher than others, everyone…

Advertising encourages people to spend, even in some times to do it by going into debt. This in turn leads to more economic activity, more widgets ordered, which in theory should mean we can reap benefits of economies of scale, we can better amortize costs, etc. Which leads to R&D and innovation, which helps technological change, which leads to a more efficient economy, which leads to more surplus, which means more wealth created, etc.

Now, of course we could do this probably without spending so much on ads, but just saying ads are zero-sum is incorrect, because there's a bigger picture.

Social status is again not so simple. Because after a certain group size there will be value in being different. See also the classic equilibrium between strategies in any game (as in game theory).

That said, yes the race to the bottom is a real problem, see the oft cited Meditations on Moloch: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: The Real Class War

#83

Post by chii »

pjc50 wrote: post #68
kortilla wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The service and/or product provided by their business is providing significant value to society (lest they wouldn’t be collecting profit). Is the reward for creating a successful business really more responsibility to just give back instead of using it to create more business?

> The service and/or product provided by their business is providing significant value to society (lest they wouldn’t be collecting profit). This is assuming the conclusion. They could just be collecting a monopoly rent or a land-rent or an IP rent; for example, when Martin Shkreli raised the price of insulin dramatically he wasn't "providing more value to society", he was extracting that value, potentially at the co…

There's a lot of confounding issues here in relation to the insulin problem: the fact that medical patents are poorly structured - insulin is hard to make, and making it via a biological mechanism means the "molecule" is slightly different, and so the FDA needs time and money to assess it. This creates a defacto monopoly, and thus, said monopoly can raise their prices.

The fix isn't to force billionaires to give out their wealth for free - but instead to fix monopoly laws, as well as to stream line the way approvals can be made for generic molecules made via biological means (like the way generic drugs are today).

In fact, an insulin factory _should_ be easy for a billionaire to fund and if the relevant regulations are better, there'd be more insulin sellers as there's profit to be made (seeing as Shkreli has raised the price).

Re: The Real Class War

#84

Post by chii »

larnmar wrote: post #23
chii wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are just quietly building businesses, rather than make flashy headlines. You don't need to "advance humanity" - just creating a service or product to satisfy since other human's needs is a good enough goal.

Sure, but once you’ve done that and you’re rich, what do you do then? For most billionaires the answer seems to be that you buy a moderately upgraded version of all the stuff you had when you were middle class, and then you sit around content to watch the numbers slowly increase. Do something interesting! It doesn’t have to be noble, it doesn’t have to be for the greater good, just do something ! Build a palace to ri…

> Do something interesting! It doesn’t have to be noble, it doesn’t have to be for the greater good, just do something!

paradoxically, this is worse in terms of resource allocation, than to attempt to create more businesses.

Making a statue in your self-image, or to build extravagant palaces, are expenses that would better be spent else where (since a statue derives little to no value to any one else, and thus the only expected profit is self-indulgence). Similarly to a palace, unless it is for the purposes of making profit (ala, like disney land, via tourism).

Funding orchestra/competition/arts is similar, but because these arts can be used to derive profits, it means other people will also find them relevant/interesting. Therefore, it is OK to do so, and not a waste of economic resources.

Re: The Real Class War

#85

Post by chii »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #22
chii wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are just quietly building businesses, rather than make flashy headlines. You don't need to "advance humanity" - just creating a service or product to satisfy since other human's needs is a good enough goal.

Advancing humanity should be a requirement for access to that kind of money. It's a hugely privileged position to be in, and the idea that it comes with exactly zero responsibility to Rest of World is nonsensical.

> It's a hugely privileged position to be in, and the idea that it comes with exactly zero responsibility to Rest of World is nonsensical.

and tell me if you also spend a portion of your income on donations to under-developed countries. Because that's what you're asking the billionaires to do - altruistic giving.

I m of the position that if they legitimately made their money (i.e., nothing illegal), they are entitled to spend it however they see fit. It's _good_ if they spend it on altruism - but it's not an entitlement that i expect of them.

Re: The Real Class War

#86

Post by frockington1 »

_bxg1 wrote: post #14
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

There's radical energy there, but here's the clincher: it will never turn into anything productive because the Republican propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class into continuing to think that public services are their enemy . They will rant and holler about communism until the billionaires have milked them of their very last dollar, and then blame that on communism too. The very policies t…

This is a very elitist and condescending ran. Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is being manipulated is not going to bring anyone to your side and will further distance people who disagree.

Re: The Real Class War

#87

Post by polytely »

singularity2001 wrote: post #69

What is often forgotten is the hyperdeflation of technology. All your gadges would be worth many millions in pre 2000 dollars. Your car is probably better in many ways than a million dollar car from 1980.

Everything is way more accessible than pre-2000's, but I would argue that the overall quality of the user-experience is probably worse. If you buy a TV today, you get amazing image quality, but you also have to live with the fact that the TV spies on you and that the software it runs on will discontinue in 5 years. (this of course doesn't matter because it's been designed to break before that point). I would gladly take an old CRT over a modern smart-tv.

Re: The Real Class War

#88

Post by dlkf »

Most places with high per-capita GDP (Canada, Scandinavia, England, Germany etc) have found that they can make meaningful, consistent, incremental progress on a lot of the problems Krein is trying to address through introducing a public system in sectors like healthcare, education, and child care - probably literally the only tack Krein would never agree to.

The problem isn't "billionaires" or "capitalism." I would probably rather billionaires lock up their money in Vangaurd stock - where its allocation is at least beholden to market forces - than spent it on misguided vanity projects.

The problem is that market failure is a real thing. Every other country on the planet seems to have realized this.

Re: The Real Class War

#89

Post by nine_k »

fladrif wrote: post #45
kortilla wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> political system to organise itself to reward work done How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t?

Not OP, but my personal belief is that all work is valuable, otherwise it wouldn't be desired. I don't think it's a good exercise to decide how much it is worth, except to say that work that requires X unit of time should provide at a minimum an amount of compensation that allows a person to obtain a standard of living above the poverty line.

In my book, work has negative utility. It is something you tolerate to get the fruits of it, which may have positive utility. Being paid in exchange for work is the sign that otherwise the work won't be worth doing for you.

The less work you do to achieve a desired result, the better. This is why technical improvements are valuable: they allow you do less work.

There are activities that are rewarding by themselves, like playing games, watching the sunset, or otherwise having leisure. You are not paid for that, you sometimes pay for it yourself, and still it remains worth doing.

Re: The Real Class War

#90

Post by frockington1 »

dlkf wrote: post #88

Most places with high per-capita GDP (Canada, Scandinavia, England, Germany etc) have found that they can make meaningful, consistent, incremental progress on a lot of the problems Krein is trying to address through introducing a public system in sectors like healthcare, education, and child care - probably literally the only tack Krein would never agree to. The problem isn't "billionaires" or "capitalism." I would p…

I would rather live in a country where an individual can save and invest to become a billionaire. Look at America vs Canada, Scandinavia, England, and Germany the last decade. Where is the growth and innovation in those countries? Why do brilliant people flock to America to start their start up? I want to live in a country with opportunity, not one of equality. Thankfully with an American or EU passport you can choose where you want to live with relative ease.
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