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Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

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Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#491

Post by facetube »

harryh wrote: post #452
facetube wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depriving someone of their property – even temporarily – and forcing them to spend otherwise profitable time making a claim to get it back is a form of damage. What you're proposing would allow agents of the government to damage people as frequently as they wanted, with impunity.

You realize you can be arrested and held in jail before a trial right? That's exactly same thing as confiscating assets pending a trial.

You didn't mention a trial in your previous post, but rather a low standard of evidence to "make a claim". In that scenario, the burden of proof is on the victim of the property seizure rather than the accuser, which makes it different IMO.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#492

Post by harryh »

facetube wrote: post #491
harryh wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize you can be arrested and held in jail before a trial right? That's exactly same thing as confiscating assets pending a trial.

You didn't mention a trial in your previous post, but rather a low standard of evidence to "make a claim". In that scenario, the burden of proof is on the victim of the property seizure rather than the accuser, which makes it different IMO.

The burden of proof in civil asset forfeiture trials (and there is a trial) is still on the plaintiff. It is not on the victim.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#493

Post by incongruity »

harryh wrote: post #486
incongruity wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see it directed, specifically, to needed public goods. Otherwise it becomes just another generic revenue source (i.e.: a tax) and, over-time, it becomes all too tempting to still milk it for more money. Red light cameras are a good example of this. Revenues from them (in Chicago, at least) went to the city's general fund. That didn't stop the city from reducing yellow light times to increase revenues.

I like that goal too, but I'm not sure how to really do that. A lot of states direct all lottery money to education but that just allows the states to spend less on education out of the general fund. Ultimately money is a fungible thing. No way around that.

That's certainly fair/true. FWIW, I appreciate the symbolism and/or keeping revenue streams constrained. At least that forces governments to be honest in taxation rather than allowing these back-door taxation strategies.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#494

Post by sbuttgereit »

wepple wrote: post #482
sbuttgereit wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The history in the U.S., it is probably fair to say, is primarily tied up in various prohibition laws, most recently drug prohibition. Though some of the precedent apparently can be traced back to British Maritime Law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... ) 2) Not if they're intellectually honest about it. If one reads the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution in context and…

can you recommend a book for someone who wants to understand more about the US - IE what the declaration of independence and constitution are, and how the US got to where it is now? covering history and politics and anything else useful to really grok these types of discussions?

I really can't. That's not to say that they don't exist, but I'm not familiar with any single book that I know I could say, "look here," and feel good about it. My own knowledge has accumulated across many different sources over many years. I am also a bit distrustful of more modern sources that want to project the nation's founding one way or another for contemporary purposes. Any such book must look at British/Colonial relations, the philosophical movements afoot in Europe and elsewhere which we call the Enlightenment, U.S. history in the 18th and 19th centuries (internal expansion and gradually working for greater international presence) and then good world histories for the 20th century. Tall order for one book :-).

For the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, it might just be easier (to start) by just reading them directly. I have a small (12.5cm x 9cm) book that contains both documents and is only 58 pages long at that size. Read them in that order as the Declaration lays out the moral statement for why a break from the British Empire was seen as necessary by the (then) British colonists and the Constitution was the legal reflection of those ideas... reading the Federalist Papers is great for getting in the mind of the Constitution's authors and supporters.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Just a few weeks ago I watch a lecture that talked about Magna Carta and include discussion on its influence on the U.S. revolutionaries that founded the country. Just that one aspect was something that I didn't really see in many of the histories I've seen.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#495

Post by sundvor »

djrogers wrote: post #479
sundvor wrote: post #322

As a Norwegian/Australian, I'm just shaking my head reading this. Sorry, I have nothing but reactionary drivel to add - but I wouldn't be surprised if this was to further (if that's even possible) increase US gun violence. For personal protection against robbery. This now appears as a marginally valid reason for your gun ownership; if they're going to take all your assets on a whim, leaving you with nothing to fend f…

> "no handout" US Roughly $2trillion of the nation's $3.8trillion spending in the 2015 [1] budget was healthcare, social security, food assistance, and unemployment. This doesn't include any of the substantial spending on welfare and 'handouts' as you call them by state and local governments. The problem isn't that we aren't willing to redistribute money, the problem is that the politicians do a crap job of it, and d…

Wow, this was a very useful breakdown. I certainly didn't realise the magnitude of the social spending. Thanks.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#496

Post by facetube »

harryh wrote: post #492
facetube wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't mention a trial in your previous post, but rather a low standard of evidence to "make a claim". In that scenario, the burden of proof is on the victim of the property seizure rather than the accuser, which makes it different IMO.

The burden of proof in civil asset forfeiture trials (and there is a trial) is still on the plaintiff. It is not on the victim.

False, at least in the US. The government's case is considered to be against the property, not against you. The standard of legal proof is a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. "Assets [are only] returned if [the] owner proves [his/her] innocence". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... for details.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#497

Post by deciplex »

djrogers wrote: post #473
deciplex wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't fall for the trap of believing civil rights and due process are something only law-abiding citizens deserve. At this point in America enough people think that if you're accused of a crime basically from that point forward any "rights" you may enjoy are solely at the indulgence of society / the criminal justice system and can be (and, often, should be ) taken away at any time. Unless it's really obvious you're i…

> At this point in America enough people think that if you're accused of a crime basically from that point forward any "rights" you may enjoy are solely at the indulgence of society / the criminal justice system I don't actually know any individuals in the US that believe this - the problem is that our government is so far out of our reach these days we can't effect significant change by simply voting for one of the…

I can think of a few Senators. Right now the federal government claims the right to detain American citizens on American soil indefinitely and without trial. Look up 2012 NDAA Section 1021. The Senate is debating, right now, whether to add an amendment to this year's NDAA to restrict this somewhat, but even the Senator proposing this amendment (Mike Lee of UT) will tell you that there are circumstances where the government needs to detain American citizens indefinitely and without trial i.e. without due process. He just wants to restrict the current practice somewhat.

I'm glad you don't know anyone like this, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#498

Post by 1_2__3 »

mahyarm wrote: post #240
1_2__3 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is flatly incorrect. This is a civil proceeding, neither you nor your property are charged with a crime. Instead, a civil (not criminal) forfeiture proceeding is initiated against your property. I'm not just being pedantic, this is part of why it's so incredibly fucked. They have, no exaggeration, taken a portion of the criminal legal system with all the constraints and due process requirements there, excised it…

Sue a contractor for not upholding your contract with the federal / state government? Like road building or whatever else.

I have to imagine there's a giant pile of (criminal) laws they could use to prosecute someone who's trying to defraud the government. But your point is still well-taken, and it's kind of academic anyway - it's an incredibly valuable (and lucrative) tool for the government, of course they're not going to give it up.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#500

Post by TrevorJ »

cloudjacker wrote: post #151
TrevorJ wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This country is starting to look way too much like pre-revolutionary France, and that's bad for everyone .

lol, starting. people say that stuff in passive protest, you should look for the causes of the revolution in france, the causes for the declaration of independence, what bothered people so much back then and then see if "starting" is actually applicable vs a glaring understatement

Life under the Ancien Regime had some clear parallels to modern times in America superficially, but there were clear differences too. Pre-revolutionary France was not at all modernized compared to the rest of their neighbors for one thing, so that lent a pressure all it's own that was unique to that time period. Some of the root causes for unrest may be similar but it's not a direct analogue by any means.
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