US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#481

Post by ObviousScience » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:59 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #365

mikeash wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Then again, these guys did not get rolled up for signing too loud in church. They have valuable intel in their heads." Why does terrorism frighten people so much that they're willing to throw away basic principles like "innocent until proven guilty"? Honest question. I see comment after comment after comment in this thread that indicates the commenters are unbelievably frightened of terrorism, to the extent that the…

The intelligent people who support the government actions aren't afraid of specific terrorist acts. They're afraid of what a failure to stop terrorist movements could lead to. I imagine there were a lot of people sitting in the cafes of Rome who said: "I can't believe you think those germanic barbarians could possibly ever pose a threat to us!" And of course, it doesn't help that the folks who are captured are mostly…

Terrorist groups are nothing like the barbarians that eventually brought down Rome, and I think you know it.

You've spent this entire thread making poor excuses for completely irrational behaviors and trying to justifying sickening, ineffective actions on the part of US personnel.

Just stop.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#482

Post by rayiner » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:02 AM UTC

ObviousScience wrote: post #481

rayiner wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligent people who support the government actions aren't afraid of specific terrorist acts. They're afraid of what a failure to stop terrorist movements could lead to. I imagine there were a lot of people sitting in the cafes of Rome who said: "I can't believe you think those germanic barbarians could possibly ever pose a threat to us!" And of course, it doesn't help that the folks who are captured are mostly…

Terrorist groups are nothing like the barbarians that eventually brought down Rome, and I think you know it. You've spent this entire thread making poor excuses for completely irrational behaviors and trying to justifying sickening, ineffective actions on the part of US personnel. Just stop.

> Terrorist groups are nothing like the barbarians that eventually brought down Rome, and I think you know it.

No, I don't know it. Care to explain it to me?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#483

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:03 AM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #379

patronagezero wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

I don't understand, how can you blame the citizens for this, when they were ignorant, against their will, about this? When the institution that is performing these acts out-and-out lies about the impact and severity, how can random citizens be held accountable? That honestly makes no sense to me.

Is this a democracy, or isn't it? And yeah, sure, we're all "ignorant" in the sense that we ignore everything that isn't spelled out in black and white, and then posted at eye level in our line of sight.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#484

Post by deciplex » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:07 AM UTC

LLWM wrote: post #415

mark_l_watson wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a family member who was hooked on the TV show "24" which featured torture. I think that it is quite possible that there is some purposeful desensitization going on.

I know lots of people who love Game of Thrones but it's a bit silly to think that there's a deliberate attempt to normalize incest or feudalism. It's just a TV show people happen to live.

Game of Thrones also has dragons and ice-zombies. 24 purports to be something that - while far-fetched - "could happen". I don't think you can say that about Game of Thrones. Also, in GoT you get a pretty good idea of the downsides of incest and feudalism, on the off chance the viewer wasn't already aware - whereas in 24 torture is presented as a wonderful thing in certain (or all) circumstances.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#485

Post by lawnchair_larry » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:12 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #220

lotharbot wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand (from talking to now very old Japanese-American men who were in the camps as young adults) it was unpleasant and caused significant hardship, but not even remotely similar to what's in this report. It's important to teach about what happened in those camps and to understand why they were wrong. Drawing inappropriate comparisons between those camps and the absolute atrocities in this report isn'…

The difference, of course, is that those in the internment camps were Americans, while most of these guys are terrorists captured on the battlefield. I do think the comparison is inappropriate, but internment was the atrocity, not this.

"but internment was the atrocity, not this."

I never was fond of you, but this confirms that you're truly a vile human. I cannot believe that there is an actual torture apologist on HN.

In your follow-up comment, you rationalize it by saying that they are not worthy of the same treatment as those from civilized nations.

I don't know if you're a sociopath or you harbor a lot of hate and anger, but in either case, I hope you get the help you need before you hurt someone.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#486

Post by zghst » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:14 AM UTC

patronagezero wrote: post #373

Loughla wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This man literally tried to chew through his own body, to bleed out, to avoid having his food forcefully shoved up his ass, for no reason whatsoever. He further attempted to kill himself on several occasions to avoid this as well. That is the cold truth of that statement. This is fucking disgusting, and someone needs to be held accountable.

> and someone needs to be held accountable. The citizens of the United States need to be held accountable. Sorry, someone has to start looking at the root of the problem.

This makes no sense.

The root of the problem didn't start at the voting booth, "Oh I'll check yes to torture those terrorist", or "I'm going to write my Congressmen telling them to torture some folks". In fact Congress voted to outlaaw waterboarding: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/14/us-security-usa-wa... (although it was vetoed by President Bush). This report will help to further clamp down on brutal interrogation techniques. It will push Congress and President Obama to resolve the issue. The CIA, in fact mislead any type of oversight over the torture programs. So instead of jumping to "we're all blame" conclusions, why don't you blame the people in charge that secured the funding for these officers to do it?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#487

Post by infinite8s » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:18 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #460

coldtea wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@rayiner > Oh my god they were quite chilly And abducted, held without trial, tortured, waterboard, anal raped, threatened, beaten againast a wall, and other things besides. A lot of them while also being totally inoccent (and in any way, without trial). What exactly have you suffered besides a comfy middle class existance that gives you the moral superiority to laugh at that? Would you also laugh at jews in Dr. Meng…

Keeping in mind that we disagree as to how many, if any, of the detainees were "totally innocent" (as opposed to procedurally innocent), are you really going to compare our treatment of terrorists to the Germans' treatment of jewish civilians?

How do you know they were terrorists and not civilians?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#488

Post by MacsHeadroom » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:27 AM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #163

clamprecht wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone should make a demonstration video out of this, showing the various techniques used. I think that would illustrate just how insane it is.

Zero Dark Thirty already has. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zllzOrTvXLc

>This video is not available in your country.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#489

Post by dang » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:37 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #411

bediger4000 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"rayiner" is a lawyer: it's called "legal argument".

To the contrary, you're not going to get much mileage in court attacking someone's weakest argument. On the internet, however, mocking someone's weakest argument is fair game.

> On the internet, however, mocking someone's weakest argument is fair game

Not on Hacker News it isn't. We want people to apply the Principle of Charity and respond to the strongest reasonable interpretation of what each other is saying [1]. Alternatively,

A comment in reply to another comment should be written in the spirit of colleagues cooperating in good faith to figure out the truth about something, not politicians trying to ridicule and misrepresent the other side. [2]

It increasingly seems to me that we should add these principles to the site guidelines, though they're arguably derivable from them.

It's true that when people seem (and/or are) hopelessly wrong and misguided, and no one else seems (and/or is) respecting these principles, there's a great temptation to say "fuck it" and let loose with snark. But that needs to be resisted. The community depends on you and other established users to set good examples. Otherwise how can we tell new users that they can't do the same—or rather, do worse, since these things always get worse?

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7445761

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#490

Post by rhizome » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 2:38 AM UTC

Arnor wrote: post #442

CWuestefeld wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We can't just keep whining "come on, guys, you really ought to stop" to our leaders. This is happening in our names, and our hands are dirty. Stopping this is our own responsibility.

And how shall we proceed?

The US is legally required by the Geneva Convention Against Torture, signed into US law by Ronald Reagan, to prosecute the torturers and their chain of command.