U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts • Hacker News Board

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#481

Post by gist » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:53 PM UTC

matthewdgreen wrote: post #295

Lio wrote: post #273

I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just…

You're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.b…

Guess what? Trump will (hopefully) come to the rescue here. Don't laugh at that. I'd imagine he will be helpful possibly even with some of the EU rules such as in particular the one which makes even small US companies liable (as I recal) for notifying users of cookies on a website.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#482

Post by smeeger » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:54 PM UTC

the UK needs to be slapped in the face. wake up man!

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#483

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:54 PM UTC

TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

matthewdgreen wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.b…

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

[deleted]

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#484

Post by insane_dreamer » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:55 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #207

insane_dreamer wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm still missing how this could be enforced ? By banning Apple from doing business in the UK. The US used a similar strategy decades ago to break Swiss Bank Secrecy laws (either Swiss banks had to give up the info or they were going to be kicked out of the US).

Swiss banks didn't care - they didn't have a large Us presence anyway. Until the US started enforcing this by proxy, other banks couldn't do business with you and the US and overall the US is more important to the world than Swiss banks.

Not so sure. Yeah, they didn't have a large US presence but they did a lot of business with US banks and securities markets -- that's what was threatened. It's wasn't the ability to have branches in the US but the ability to conduct business in US markets.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#485

Post by ok_dad » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:56 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #426

banku_brougham wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a pet theory, it's exactly how the Five-Eyes system is meant to work. I remember when Total Information Awareness was announced and they even had a cool badge designed for the new govt department. It wasn't a popular idea.

It is a pet theory. It is illegal for the US to access its citizens' and residents' data without a warrant, and asking somebody else to do it doesn't magically make it legal.

It’s illegal but they do it anyways. Recall there was a man named Snowden who revealed the NSA does collect USA citizens’ data.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#486

Post by nico » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

If it happens, likely the main beneficiary of this would be the US govt

Through Five Eyes the US agencies could, via the UK, get global access to iCloud accounts

No need to change US law

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#487

Post by Habgdnv » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

matthewdgreen wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.b…

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

Imagine Kim Jong-un goes to a few police stations in North Korea. It might not work on the first try, but eventually, he manages to trick one officer into believing that Trump threatened him on Facebook. Now, the police of a given country can legally request Apple to provide all information from Trump’s iCloud for an "investigation" into threats of violence— even if they are completely fabricated.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#488

Post by RobotToaster » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

bilekas wrote: post #109

cmsj wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple still has legal entities in the UK. Pulling out cloud services would be insufficient to prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities.

> prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities I'm still missing how this could be enforced ? To my layman understanding, this reads the same as if China said : "Meta, Tesla, Valve etc has entities in China therefore we get to see all data they store in the EU and the US. The UK has Zero jurisdiction in Ireland for example where a lot of EU data may be stored.

I imagine they would fine apple a large sum of money. If apple refuse to pay they send high court sheriffs to confiscate any property they have in the UK to pay the debt.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#489

Post by cess11 » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #426

banku_brougham wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a pet theory, it's exactly how the Five-Eyes system is meant to work. I remember when Total Information Awareness was announced and they even had a cool badge designed for the new govt department. It wasn't a popular idea.

It is a pet theory. It is illegal for the US to access its citizens' and residents' data without a warrant, and asking somebody else to do it doesn't magically make it legal.

Why would they "access [their] data", instead of a report from a foreign intelligence agency?

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#490

Post by maeil » Fri, Feb 07, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #318

maeil wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? If you voted for this Tory-lite government, then you can stop voting for any future Tory-lite governments. If you did not, there's not much you can do in practice without devoting your life to it.

Which party, with a realistic chance of being first past the post, could you vote for that wouldn't bring this in? This is Hobson's choice as far as I can see. I don't think there's anyone you could currently vote for that wouldn't do this.

You know the answer, of course with FPTP there's only two parties with a realistic chance. But why do they? Because you keep voting on them. Your votes made e.g. Corbyn lose but Starmer win. What signal does this give off? A very different signal than if both would've lost. Would another Tory government would have been even worse? In the short term, maybe. But this kind of short-termism is what has got Labour (and all of the other similar parties all over Europe) in this exact predicament. Better to make them lose for picking an awful candidate that's a Tory-lite and bite the bullet. It's not like the Tories would have kept winning for decades on end with the way things were going.