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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#481

Post by belorn »

handoflixue wrote: post #400
colpabar wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And frankly I'd rather have the black woman on the team to offer that perspective, especially for product decisions, because they might have interesting things to say. Doesn't this seem like a weird thing to say? How do you know that? Isn't this the definition of stereotyping? Is every question going to be of the form "as a black woman, what do you think about X?" And why is it okay to assume that white people don'…

> why is it okay to assume that white people don't have interesting things to say? I mean, basic statistics: in a group of 20 white men and 1 black woman, all else being equal, the black woman is likely to have radically different experiences. > How do you know that? I think this because I routinely run into examples in the vein of "this cool facial recognition tech doesn't recognize black people". There's obviously…

Using basic statistics in order to determine behavior from people based on race is called racial profiling. It is why the police assume, all else being equal, that a black man is more likely to be involved in crime than a white man.

Alone, "It's just statistics." should never be the justification if the outcome has a strong negative for an individual.

Carl Sagan describe such profiling in his book The Demon-Haunted World. He calls it lazy thinking. People take in a complex person and reduces them down to single bits of information, man or woman, black or white.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#482

Post by sagebird »

jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

> So the question is, where should the fix be applied?

I think the only way to solve it would be - Randomized child dna assignment, ie, every child is adopted or the dna material is swapped.

I think people would like to solve historical unfairness problem - but I believe it would require abandoning the very foundation of our biologically influenced culture. Ie- nobody is willing to give up the possibility of having mini-me.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#483

Post by kyorochan »

tokinonagare wrote: post #62
duxup wrote: post #3

How wide spread is this requirement? I've never heard about it before. >schools are requiring “Diversity Statements” as a condition for new hires Is this like when you do a self performance review and you just throw in a bunch of common phrases / text?

I've seen it for a university position in Sweden. It has a self-criticism and cult like feel that I really don't like. Position in universities should be considered on scientific and educational grounds, not political.

Which university was this?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#484

Post by account42 »

handoflixue wrote: post #400
colpabar wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And frankly I'd rather have the black woman on the team to offer that perspective, especially for product decisions, because they might have interesting things to say. Doesn't this seem like a weird thing to say? How do you know that? Isn't this the definition of stereotyping? Is every question going to be of the form "as a black woman, what do you think about X?" And why is it okay to assume that white people don'…

> why is it okay to assume that white people don't have interesting things to say? I mean, basic statistics: in a group of 20 white men and 1 black woman, all else being equal, the black woman is likely to have radically different experiences. > How do you know that? I think this because I routinely run into examples in the vein of "this cool facial recognition tech doesn't recognize black people". There's obviously…

> all else being equal

But all else is not equal. People are more than just their skin color. Ignoring all other diversity and focusing only on race (or a few other arbitrary factors like sexual orientation of all things) is exactly the problem here.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#485

Post by Thiez »

cetahfh14615 wrote: post #255
jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

> And there is another thing too -- you can't deny that a black woman has had a vastly difference life experience than a white man, even if those two people have all the same job relevant qualifications otherwise. And frankly I'd rather have the black woman on the team to offer that perspective, especially for product decisions, because they might have interesting things to say. I mean, you give a very cliche example…

> We know of the disgusting things white people have historically done

Really? Let the "race" that is without sin cast the first stone.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#486

Post by cxr »

tptacek wrote: post #427
cxr wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not accurate. You said you knew of lots of good criticisms against a position, and I asked you what they were. I'm saying that I can't make out what it is about article's position that you're saying is bad. Since you mentioned opposition who are animated by the author's position, I'm asking: "Who are the opposition? What does animate them?"[1] The fact that I don't know and couldn't figure out what you're refe…

It's fine if we're just at a point where there's nothing for us to productively discuss.

That makes it sound like the failure of productive discussion in this instance is a blameless, emergent phenomenon. If you don't want to discuss it productively...? Okay. "Nothing for us to productively discuss" isn't the best description for what comes down to someone being coy (and then, eventually, evasive), though.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#487

Post by account42 »

scifibestfi wrote: post #361
jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

How do you explain the following data given your premise? https://i.redd.it/9n4lf8f5hrc91.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

I know for Taiwanese it is/was not uncommon for the rich to fly to the US for the birth to get dual cititizenship for their children. In general, US immigration has sufficient hurdles that any group that is actively migrating there will skew towards those already well off.

Of course that's not an argument for discrimination based on race - if anything, cements that race is a poor proxy for "priviledge".

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#488

Post by account42 »

deanCommie wrote: post #312
ElCheapo wrote: post #18

I think these institutions believe that more diversity ----> more inclusivity and less racism. How would a racist indian national deeply entrenched in caste culture help my company be less racist? How would an asian supremacist laotian increase the workplace's acceptance? If you want a place of tolerance then it should be populated by tolerant people. Throwing together males and females with a random sample of skin c…

Because context matters. With some exception (specifically our industry), all the privilige of a high caste indian or Laotian supremacy goes away when you move to a Western/White dominated culture. They are much more likely to encounter racism against THEIR race, than have the opportunity to promote their own racism.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/googles-caste-bias-pr...

https://qz.com/apple-meta-and-google-must-fight-caste-discri...

https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/caste-silicon-valley-th...

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#489

Post by [deleted] »

beej71 wrote: post #466
vlod wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understand this argument. Wouldn't market forces, i.e. capitalism, gekko's greed-is-good argument fix this? If there were a group of basketball players with blue eyes (that were the best in the world), wouldn't someone see the huge money potential and create a team full of blue-eyes and win the title/cup/trophy?

Maybe in many decades after the anti-blue-eye bias had been successfully mitigated such a team would be formed. But until then, money and winning is not enough. Bias is stronger than capitalism. Some people willingly give up money to not serve gay people, for example.

[deleted]

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#490

Post by [deleted] »

croes wrote: post #473
beej71 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in many decades after the anti-blue-eye bias had been successfully mitigated such a team would be formed. But until then, money and winning is not enough. Bias is stronger than capitalism. Some people willingly give up money to not serve gay people, for example.

Exactly, people don't act always rationally, they sometimes even act against their own interests. Homo oeconomicus is a myth.

[deleted]
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