Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#481

Post by tedivm » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

mikl wrote: post #453

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

You have no idea how ironic this comment is considering the history of Cloudflare. I remember going to a talk by their CEO at Defcon years ago when Scientology was being DDoSed and he was bragging about providing CDN services to the Anonymous hacker groups that were behind the DDoS. Cloudflare didn't seem to care about free speech for the Scientologists. There was even a huge discussion about whether performing a DDoS was itself a version of free speech or not (this was assuming people were volunteering their computers to join the botnet, as was the case with the scientology protests).

It's funny you mention the megaphone thing too, as that is an example of free speech. People do this regularly. The person with the megaphone has the free speech right to shout over the person next to him- at least in public.

> Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

The slippery slop fallacy is called a fallacy for a reason. What kills me though is that people on this site aren't nearly as upset about Cloudflare taking down Switter and other sex worker websites as they are about Kiwifarms. It makes it hard to take the free speech argument seriously when the people making it only care about it when the sites they visit get taken down.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#482

Post by bt4u » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

flumpcakes wrote: post #340

antiufo wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here, both 1) access to HRT for minors and 2) HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community (which I also endorse). Rationale for 1. It's widely supported by the medical community and by scientific studies, and helps improve the quality of life of people with gender dysphoria. Rationale for 2. Gatekeeping traditionally consist in telling a psychiatrist anec…

Anyone ( anyone regardless of anything) who said they believed giving any medicine to a child without parental consent, even implying subterfuge, to me is extremely dangerous and I would pull my child out of any activity/school/club if there was someone there with those views in a responsible role of the children. For that reason I think attitudes like this do more harm for the trans community than good. If I knew a…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#483

Post by e2le » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

TOMDM wrote: post #326

weare138 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

How are three people dead because of KF? Not concern trolling, a google search only turned up a kiwifarms thread that _could_ have been relevant, but is now obviously inaccessable.

I do wish people would archive these pages to dissuade any doubt of wrongdoing.

For the love of god, please use archive.ph or archive.org.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#484

Post by cowtools » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

redeeman wrote: post #418

cowtools wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is "doxxing" a crime? I'm told that the new york times has "doxxed" people on numerous occasions. Should they get taken down?

they doxxed a twitter user causing that user to face credible life threats and had to evacuate and go into hiding.. but they are a-okay naturally

If "go into hiding" means "not posting personally-identifiable information on the public internet", then that doesn't sound so bad. In fact, that's what I always do all the time on the internet, as should everyone.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#485

Post by squeaky-clean » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

yanderekko wrote: post #358

TOMDM wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are three people dead because of KF? Not concern trolling, a google search only turned up a kiwifarms thread that _could_ have been relevant, but is now obviously inaccessable.

People who have threads on KiwiFarms have (allegedly) committed suicide. That's about all that's required to attribute each death causally to KiwiFarms. It's an incredibly weak standard.

KiwiFarms members often don't just take notes of those they laugh at. They actively get involved in harassing them, online, through the phone and in person.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#486

Post by _vvaw » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

spurgelaurels wrote: post #439

neonsunset wrote: post #334

The problem with salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people is closing to its demise with every case like this. The advantage of emotionally immature people (regardless of their actual age) having too much time on their hands forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like will eventually cease when the majority of people will realize that they are, well, in a ma…

You do realize that this wasn't simply about "discourse", yes? This was about active doxxing and swatting of real living human beings. Being transphobic might be just an (ignorant) opinion, but actively working to harm people needs to be shut right down.

SWATing and harassment is explicitly prohibited on Kiwi Farms, and the site owner aggressively removes such content. "Doxing" is for better or worse not a crime, and is practiced by the very same people currently crying for Kiwi Farms' deletion.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#487

Post by paulmd » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #402

_-david-_ wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if another site that you consider completely legitimate can't be hosted just because others think it is not acceptable? Maybe your views are currently acceptable, but will they be in 5, 10, 20 years?

When was the last time a site got taken down because "others think it is not acceptable"? Please, name a single one. There's a difference between people simply "not liking" a site, and people using extremely well-established principles of ethical concepts and human rights (which have been refined over centuries) to decide what content is violating the "laws", as we call them, which have been generally agreed upon in…

oh, that's easy: Stormfront, the Daily Stormer...

... hey, Kiwifarm's holding company was named 'Final Solutions, LLC', what a coincidence! ;)

https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1563748563926089730

take a seat, gamers... we've found the REAL most-oppressed minority here (/s)

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#488

Post by AtNightWeCode » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Sit down in the boat. Thepiratebay is still online a trizillion years after all the debacles.

Cloudflare is not the biggest player at these services. Any other major competitor does not allow services like KW. This whole ordeal is stupid.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#489

Post by antiufo » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

flumpcakes wrote: post #431

antiufo wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abortion is another example where minors are allowed to make decisions by themselves. Which is particularly important when you have politically heated topics like these, where the medical literature and your average parent often hold very different views.

Yes, a medical abortion approved and administered by medical professionals. I don't think the medical literature suggests taking homemade drugs from strangers on the internet.

When the political reality of the place where you live influences that, I definitely support gray-market solutions. Just like https://abort.lol/ exists for abortion.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#490

Post by ajross » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #454

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future of the internet seems pretty sad... That’s frankly terrible. Sites infamous for promoting harassment can’t be hosted anymore. Clearly a tremendous loss for the internet. /s

This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it. Its easy to say those things for someone you dislike, but zoom out and look at the implications, you have a campaign pretty much asking cloudflare to stand aside and allow them to do DDOS attacks on a website which apparently won several lawsuits against them already(ill dig up the sources a bit later on when I…

> Maybe kiwifarms is all people say they are

"All people say they are" is a site running coordinated harassment campaigns, including SWATing and bomb threats, though. Those are clear crimes. You can't seriously be arguing that CloudFlare or DDos-Guard or whoever shouldn't be allowed to choose not to do business with that sort of thing, can you?

Like so many others here[1], your perception thing seems to be based solely on your personal judgement as to whether the claims are true. But if they're true, it doesn't seem very controversial at all. And even if they're not true, it seems like the only party's judgement that really matters here (absent law enforcement, of course), is CloudFlare's.

[1] I admit I've been stunned at the general level of anti-trans sentiment in these threads. So many of these subthreads end in arguments like yours, which sound like they're trying to be arguments of general libertarian principle but end up falling into subjectivity traps.