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How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

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Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#481

Post by robocat »

tablespoon wrote: post #111
rcoveson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen some concern about this issue in El Salvador. But "latinx"? Not once. It's unpronounceable in Spanish. You only see the letter X in indigenous place-names like Mexico or Oaxaca, and there it's pronounced kind of like a fricative version of our H, which can't work at the end of the word. I've heard native English speakers say it's pronounced "lah-TINKS", which is so obviously foreign it's painful. Two solu…

> But "latinx"? Not once. It's unpronounceable in Spanish. You only see the letter X in indigenous place-names like Mexico or Oaxaca, and there it's pronounced kind of like a fricative version of our H, which can't work at the end of the word. I've heard native English speakers say it's pronounced "lah-TINKS", which is so obviously foreign it's painful. That's pretty ironic. I never made that connection, though I onl…

This video gives some background to the term, and pronounces it latin-ex: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bs339gW_xqU (I tried to pick a short video without any adverts.)

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#483

Post by hnbad »

kybernetyk wrote: post #325
hnbad wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you reckon is the reason for the increase in gay kids in the west after the decriminalization of homosexuality in most western countries? Hint: it's the decriminalization and social acceptance allowing gay people to come out of the closet rather than having to pretend they're straight for fear of consequences. The kids aren't being transed. I know there are several mostly British authors having extremely loud…

> And social acceptance is the biggest contributor to reducing suicidality That’s not the proper way to treat depression. No amount of social acceptance will lower the suicide rates of people with mis/untreated depression.

Your argument would be valid if I didn't qualify the context. I wasn't talking about depression and at no point did I indicate that I was.

Also the proper way to treat depression is to identify the underlying cause, which can be simply rooted in brain chemistry but can also be environmental.

If you're suicidal because your family and social circles reject you for who you are and society in general treats you unfavorably and you are constantly harassed or fetishized by strangers, the problem isn't your brain chemistry.

The question isn't whether or not to treat gender dysphoria as a mental disorder (though in part, of course that is a question too, though one that seems to have been settled) but whether social rejection and harassment are harmful or helpful for trans people. And I'm saying evidence shows it's incredibly harmful and drastically increases suicidality and decreases quality of life (because otherwise social acceptance wouldn't measurably have the opposite effect).

If your concern is health (and mental health) outcomes, not making sure people stick to the gender and presentation they grew up with, the best course of action for trans people seems to be to accept them for who they say they are and make them feel welcome and valid.

There are of course other arguments against accepting trans people but those can be disproven separately and there's no reason to shift the goal posts if we're just talking about suicidality and quality of life.

PS: Of course trans people can also be depressed independently of their transness and in that case they will need to be treated for depression as well. But the specific suicidality rate that is talked about with regard to trans people seems to be evidently linked to their social acceptance, which tracks with other groups. Alan Turing was literally driven to suicide because he was sentenced to chemical castration for not being able to deny being gay.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#484

Post by yawaworht1978 »

jasonlotito wrote: post #456
FiberBundle wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some, even most, of the goals of that movement are commendable, with the exception of the more idealistic goals such as equality of outcome. What I find worrying, however, are the tactics that are used to accomplish those goals. I find it hard to understand how people do not see how discriminating against other people because of their views is not the right approach to solve discrimination.

What would you suggest that wasn’t tried before? Conversations, education, peaceful protests, etc. None worked as well as this. If someone is punching you in the face every single day, and nothing you try that’s non violent works, but suddenly you get results when you push back, wouldn’t you employ that method? Sure, it hurts the person punching you, but they were punching you.

I would agree with that. You only slip and evade so many punches before you strike back. Many of these things took a lot of effort. Examples were suffrage in Switzerland, only approved in 1971(by male voters). Sounds crazy, the UK suffragettes got their way between WW1 and WW2, it's pretty shameful that Some anti homosexuality laws have been passed after that. The same conservative outlets who point fingers at the Talibans for killing homosexuals have been on the anti gay train when it was convenient.

The Dutch simplified the most useful rule in the 17th century: "live and let live", it was codified into (maritime) law.

We have a system that cannot accommodate all views and opinions, but if we gonna call it democracy, at least the minorities should not be discriminated on.

But yeah, a bullies freedom of speech and someone with green hair crossing paths will cause some potential friction. If not right there on the spot, people will vent online. Case in point, there's this guy Nick Szabo , intelligent person, but damn his Twitter feed and contributions make you wonder if he dresses up as a klansman in the nights.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#485

Post by imgabe »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #224
riffraff wrote: post #193

> acronyms such as vapa (Visual and Performing Arts), on the ground that they are “a symptom of white supremacy”. wait, how? Surely all cultures have at some point embraced visual and performance arts?

It's not that, it's the fact it's an acronym that only certain groups are familiar with. Calling it Visual and Performance Arts is fine, because everyone understands what it means. Calling it VAPA is inferior communication, because it only signals to those already familiar with the acronym, and leaves the rest out. Instead they now just call it the 'Arts Department', so everyone understands what it means. For example…

This is ridiculous to the point of self-parody coming from the movement that spawned BIPOC, LGBTQIA+, a complete redefinition of the word “privilege“, and which demands the immediate firing and permanent silencing of anyone who has not fully internalized the appropriate “inclusive” language du jour.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#486

Post by vidarh »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135
invalidOrTaken wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To an extent left and right are asymmetrical---leftist groups tend to be groups organized around being leftist as their main purpose, while "rightist" groups (churches, police unions, gun enthusiasts) tend to be rightist incidentally . Neo Nazis feel like the exception that proves the rule.

[flagged]

It's not at all a modern conceit. Hitler gained power with the support of the right wing parties. Von Papen, who ensured Hitler got the chancellorship was linked to Zentrum, a right wing party that was the forerunner of Germany's current right wing CDU. The only party to vote against Hitler in the Reichstag were the social democrats (because KPD had been banned).

NSDAP had an economically left, socially right opposition originally (the Strasserists), but those who hadn't been expelled already were arrested or murdered during the Night of the Long Knives.

Meanwhile Hitler was repeatedly praised by right wing commentators and papers and seen as an enemy by the left.

To spread the fiction that the Nazis we're not seen as right wing at the time is offensive, and simply not supported by the facts.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#487

Post by FiberBundle »

jasonlotito wrote: post #456
FiberBundle wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some, even most, of the goals of that movement are commendable, with the exception of the more idealistic goals such as equality of outcome. What I find worrying, however, are the tactics that are used to accomplish those goals. I find it hard to understand how people do not see how discriminating against other people because of their views is not the right approach to solve discrimination.

What would you suggest that wasn’t tried before? Conversations, education, peaceful protests, etc. None worked as well as this. If someone is punching you in the face every single day, and nothing you try that’s non violent works, but suddenly you get results when you push back, wouldn’t you employ that method? Sure, it hurts the person punching you, but they were punching you.

Well a good first step would be to accept that societal changes take time to develop. We have made huge progress in areas such as women's rights. Asian immigrants, which were severely discriminated against in the past, have achieved tremendous upward mobility in our society. There are many other areas in which our society has progressed. All of this progress has occurred without any of the radical discrimatory tactics that are used today.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#488

Post by karmelapple »

FiberBundle wrote: post #390
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #327

It's just a shift from older, less flexible values like family, church etc to the more open minded approach, "do as you like". Nothing wrong with people having tattoos everywhere, green or violet hair, non conformist clothing and views. Let them be, let them express and find themselves. I am the shave every day suit kinda guy and will remain so, but if someone chooses to be different or wants to complain about new wo…

Some, even most, of the goals of that movement are commendable, with the exception of the more idealistic goals such as equality of outcome. What I find worrying, however, are the tactics that are used to accomplish those goals. I find it hard to understand how people do not see how discriminating against other people because of their views is not the right approach to solve discrimination.

Do you have a few concrete examples of large groups strongly advocating for equality of outcomes?

I’ve had discussions about “equality” with folks aligned across the political spectrum, and most everyone agrees they want equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. I’m confused about who or what group is speaking about people desiring equality of outcome.

And discriminating against other people because of their views - what if their view is, “group A of people, who didn’t do anything to belong to group A, shouldn’t exist or have the same rights as group B?”

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#489

Post by zpeti »

nonameiguess wrote: post #418
p0d wrote: post #340

As a christian I believe in mercy and grace. And yes, many of us 'believers' have not practised what we preached. Many of us do try however not to be hypocrites. Here's my question. Where is mercy and grace in the midst of wokeness? I want you to believe my christian message but I will not force you to do so. I don't want to introduce laws to force you to believe what I believe. I don't want you to lose your job beca…

You may personally believe in mercy and grace and not forcing people to be Christian, but historically, the entire reason Christianity is so prevalent is Christians traveled to other continents with guns and forcibly slaughtered or enslaved the natives if they didn't convert and took their children away and forced them into Christian schools. Whatever you think of "wokeness," it isn't anywhere near a level of world-c…

> the entire reason

Maybe it’s a teeny weeny more complex than that?

Plenty of cultures and religions that did the same don’t exist any more. So I don’t think killing heretics and taking their children is a guarantee to success for a religion.

Re: How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to everyday life?

#490

Post by ezekiel68 »

orbifold wrote: post #363
parineum wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> part of their program Who's they? Name names.

Goldman Sachs is happy to sponsor floats for the gay pride parade (which incidentally is by now a huge commercial opportunity anyways), they were far less happy about the Occupy Wallstreet movement.

Why would anyone imagine or posit without sources that there is definitely a connection between these two movements? (In other words -- that an entity would be hypocritical for not supporting both)
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