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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

481–490 of 501 posts

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#481
post #412
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully disagree. The invisible homeless need the most help because they could really benefit and return to society for not that much cost. The visible homeless are mostly addicts and mentally ill that are too far gone to be anything more than contained.

They often already get help, and are the segment that help actually helps them. But it's the visibile chronic criminal homeless w/ drug and mental illness problems that make a city worse for everyone, including the invisible homeless.

Agreed, in Seattle some of the activist groups actually actively make the chronic homeless more visible to increase funding to the other group. It’s a very effective strategy actually.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the tough call needs to be made that when someone is obviously mentally ill, homeless and without proper sane supervision, the State should institutionalize them indefinitely.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

Someone who is unwell who has committed multiple lesser acts of violence should probably be locked up for at least a little while sufficient for us to figure out if he is going to do it again.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

Someone who is unwell who has committed multiple lesser acts of violence should probably be locked up for at least a little while sufficient for us to figure out if he is going to do it again.

Committing acts of violence wasn't in GP post. That's a detail you've added.

If someone has committed acts of violence you lock them up for those acts.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

What basic right allows you to try and murder someone?

Police arrive at your home and they detain you, and take you to hospital. They claim that you might murder someone.

How do you get out of hospital?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

Do you think there is no objective standard by which we can judge consistent, completely insane, detached behavior?

I know for a fact that there's no way we can tell who out of that group of "completely insane" is likely to be violent.

What you're asking for is detention of people with a disability because they have a disability. That's not allowed under the UN CRPD.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#486

> In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs. It is relying less on the criminal justice toolbox to deal with hard drugs and more on the public health toolbox. America's puritanical urges result in more self-harm than anything else. So much of the way our nation is structured is based on some ancient idea that you have to live clean and work hard in order to get to heaven. That is combined with a sen…

That's rather condescending and ignorant. It has nothing to do with puritanical urges, it has to do with personal responsibility and everyone being responsible for their own actions, which results in having to suffer the personal consequences without having the right to impose oneself on others by one's own choices in life. Unfortunately, this whole drug situation in the USA has gotten, like many things, totally out…

Would you please stop using HN for ideological battle? We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which side they're on or against.

It's not what this site is for, because it destroys the intellectual curiosity it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#487
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rather condescending and ignorant. It has nothing to do with puritanical urges, it has to do with personal responsibility and everyone being responsible for their own actions, which results in having to suffer the personal consequences without having the right to impose oneself on others by one's own choices in life. Unfortunately, this whole drug situation in the USA has gotten, like many things, totally out…

but then how would we back-channel support our preferred political factions in the drug producing countries??

oh hey.. here's mister anyonymous non-commented downvote again..

have 3 examples throughout modern history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Connection

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaloa_Cartel#Allegations_of_...

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#488
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there is no objective standard by which we can judge consistent, completely insane, detached behavior?

I know for a fact that there's no way we can tell who out of that group of "completely insane" is likely to be violent. What you're asking for is detention of people with a disability because they have a disability. That's not allowed under the UN CRPD.

I truly don't understand the world you inhabit. A prior history of repeated attempts to commit harm are a pretty good predictor of future actions absent a compelling narrative suggesting otherwise.

Ex. Patient A was doing foo harmful behavior until we changed their medication and the devil stopped appearing in their dreams to give them orders.

Patient B had a history of trying to bite nurses noses off but has been well behaved for 2 years now and participating in therapy.

Every first world nation has standards and procedures for detaining people who are unwell and a danger to themselves and others. It usually involves "expert" opinion and bad behavior to get into such a situation and "expert" opinion to get out. There is an entire history of bad behavior and bad science involved here but the substitute for bad science is better science not let people get away with infinite malfeasance because they are nuts.

People are for example sometimes ordered to facilities where they may receive treatment in place of detention in prison or be taken into custody in the process of some bad behavior and be subjected to an evaluation based on their behavior.

What do you suggest we do with the guy trying to throw women into traffic when he is inevitably declared crazy? Dismiss the charges and let him go? Would you rather

-- He get the treatment he so clearly needs.

-- Someone get murdered by him.

-- The citizenry take matters into their own hands and rid themselves of him.

Option A is surely infinity preferable.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#489
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not terribly surprised macro economic number don't show a strong correlation to crime. We're already talking about a group on the margins generally when we're looking at small property crimes and top line numbers like unemployment don't capture people who aren't even looking for work anymore (eg drug addicts).

Yeah Economics has a huge problem with the Fruit Basket Fallacy.

Going to need a definition on that, the first result on google for 'fruit basket fallacy' is literally this comment.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#490
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why nothing gets done. - Dealing with petty crime that makes everyone miserable is insensitive to the homeless/addicts/etc who are stealing people's stuff and selling it. - We should send people to provide garbage pickup to people occupying spaces that don't belong to them, but make sure that they aren't disturbed. - We should be housing first, but not with housing projects. What would you suggest be done?

Obviously, we need to make sure NO ONE has any kind of quality of life. Large US cities should keep being shit shows and keep getting worse for everyone until 100% of people, no matter their socioeconomic situation, can live like kings.

I can’t tell what you are communicating.
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