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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

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Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#331

Post by Consultant32452 »

rdtwo wrote: post #204
news_to_me wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there would be fewer needles outside your apartment if we simply locked these people up? I think there would be more. I agree that the limits of rehabilitation need to be seriously considered, and that good policy requires a mix of approaches. That said, all of your arguments could be applied to alcoholics during prohibition. I think if we actually want a sense of community in this city, it starts by tre…

If my neighbor beat his wife, damaged my car and pissed on my house I would do exactly what ever good neighbor should- call the cops and make sure they have enough evidence to send his ass to jail. The problem is when the cops don’t come then what do you do?

If the police don't come, it's a breakdown of civilization. Buy a gun.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#333

Post by shados »

Spooky23 wrote: post #310
npo9 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am anti housing projects. To me, creating a housing projects is like sweeping the problem under the rug. It concentrates poverty and crime into the area in/around the projects.

This is why nothing gets done. - Dealing with petty crime that makes everyone miserable is insensitive to the homeless/addicts/etc who are stealing people's stuff and selling it. - We should send people to provide garbage pickup to people occupying spaces that don't belong to them, but make sure that they aren't disturbed. - We should be housing first, but not with housing projects. What would you suggest be done?

Obviously, we need to make sure NO ONE has any kind of quality of life. Large US cities should keep being shit shows and keep getting worse for everyone until 100% of people, no matter their socioeconomic situation, can live like kings.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#334

Post by mehrdadn »

Fellshard wrote: post #323
mehrdadn wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seattle's crime rate, like most American cities, has been steadily declining since the 1980s. Someone else says the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20780632 Not sure which one is correct...

When I see conflicting stories like that, especially regarding a topic like this, I'd immediately check the definitions each party is using.

Yeah, that's why I commented. So they could resolve explain what they meant and hopefully resolve the discrepancy.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#335

Post by moufestaphio »

dcolkitt wrote: post #75

I fully support legalizing all drugs, but don't understand why the latest wave of criminal justice reform tolerates property crimes. Crimes like smash and grabs, purse snatching, bike thefts, vandalism, littering, and shoplifting clearly have defined victims and lower the quality of life for everyone. It's perfectly possible to be a heroin addict and an upstanding citizen at the same time. The same cannot be said of…

>I fully support legalizing all drugs, but don't understand why the latest wave of criminal justice reform tolerates property crimes.

This so much! You're not a criminal because you're doing heroin or whatever, you're a criminal because you're stealing everything that isn't nailed down, harassing and threatening people in the neighborhood, attempting to break into houses repeatedly.

This is all happening to my neighbors and I. But the police do nothing.

It's pretty frustrating.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#336

Post by munificent »

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #263
linksnapzz wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither is allowing schizophrenics, petty criminals and drug addicts to harm themselves and others, on the assumption that there's no such thing as normative civil behaviour. So that they might be "healed" by being left to their own devices, someone else needs to be harmed. That someone is usually the poor naive bougie who thought that by paying property taxes and having a job, he could expect to be able to retain po…

Then maybe it's time for governments to evolve because why AREN'T they being oriented toward collective and individual well-being, which would include healing? And I never claimed leaving people to their own devices was a healing modality, either. We need to expand the concept of responsibility to be aligned with reality. I'm at least partially responsible for everything that hapoen to me after this next breath. Same…

> why AREN'T they being oriented toward collective and individual well-being

Because these are opposing forces. It improves my individual well-being to be able to steal yachts from the marina, drive them around, and set them on fire. But it doesn't improve the collective well-being of the community — including its yacht owners — for me to be able to do that. It improves the collective well-being of a community to take a dangerously mentally ill person and lock them up forever so that they aren't a threat to others. It does not do much that person's well-being.

Obviously, there are good policies that thread the needle. It is not a zero-sum game. But it is absolutely a game where not everyone can get what they want and very hard choices and sacrifices must be made.

> redesign government to be something everyone can love and that is loving.

There are actual serial killers, rapists, child traffickers, and abusers out there. They are in the minority. But a key function of government is to protect the majority from that minority. No government that protects us from those bad actors is going to be loved by those bad actors.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#337

Post by shados »

malandrew wrote: post #55
nikanj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wars can also be ended by surrender, which Vancouver BC did. I understand Seattle’s approach has been similar: Grant de facto immunity to homeless people committing petty crime, stop all police enforcement of drug laws, and shame everyone who dares to complain.

> and shame everyone who dares to complain. And then watch at they turn on you by quietly voting for your opponents in greater and greater numbers as the problem worsens.

People are downvoting this, but the person has a point. That's exactly how Trump got elected (followed by millions of people wondering how the hell it could happen).

Shame everyone who disagrees with you, cancel them, ban them on your online forums, and then it's like they don't exist. You win! Except they can still vote, and you're no longer in a situation where you can influence them.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#338

Post by ericfrenkiel »

moate wrote: post #280
ericfrenkiel wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as it is outside city limits, but operated as a city extension, in something like a rural environment, I think this is a great idea.

Why is removing this from the city central to your support?

To effectively clean up the city. You can’t have tent encampments in cities, which leads to refuse build up, which brings the rats, which spread typhoid. Yes, this is a fact, and yes this is right now a current problem facing Los Angeles. If resources can be distributed outside city limits which are paid for by city taxpayers, city residents can see a return on their taxes with cleaner, safer neighborhoods. For those who are not drug addicts or bums, but need help to get back on their feet, those are the individuals who should be offered beds and resources in the city.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#339

Post by shados »

ndarwincorn wrote: post #162
coryrc wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a big problem for those of us still here that would prefer enforcement; our fellow-minded voters have (probably rightly) chosen defect and left the city, rather than stay to vote for change. Suburb living also has twice the greenhouse gas impact as well.

Those of us still here that prefer empathy would rather you follow your 'fellow-minded' folks and just leave. Seattle's had this tension between the left and the liberals for a century. Traditionally you lived on the outskirts. You're welcome to go back if the city offends your sensibilities.

"Empathy" is unfortunately becoming code word for "caring to a specific group of people but not others". It's almost never used for "the ability to understand and care about the feelings of people in general".

The people who aren't living in the street but are victims of these petty crimes or have their own quality of life drastically reduced because of all this still matter. And I don't think the solution is to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Especially since even the reasonably well off (dare I say, what's left of the "middle class") frequently has it worse in the US than random people do in other first world countries.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#340

Post by unethical_ban »

michaelmrose wrote: post #215
dymk wrote: post #7

I am just astounded that this is being spun in such a positive light. It absolutely has had a negative impact on public safety here. They're offered public services, and they refuse them, because many of our "tiny villages" have no-drug-use policies, which they will not abide by. My city has one of the worst problems with repeat violent drug addicts in the nation (perhaps aside from the Bay) and yet we refuse to jail…

Having had to deal with issues in Seattle myself and having had family members that were the victims of crime in Seattle I'm sympathetic however can't we do a better job of dealing with the violent and deal with addicts without throwing them into an oubliette? Regarding the idiot trying to throw women over the overpass. Your statement is in error. It's a crime to try to harm people as well and he has in fact been arr…

I think the tough call needs to be made that when someone is obviously mentally ill, homeless and without proper sane supervision, the State should institutionalize them indefinitely.
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