Live data from Hacker News

Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

headcrashing.wordpress.com

481–490 of 526 posts

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#481
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until you are out there trying to find another job in two years and people start looking at you like an old VB6 or PowerBuilder developer.....

You seem really traumatized with whatever happened there regarding jobs. No job is secure.

That’s kind of the point. No job is secure that’s why it’s not a great idea for someone not to keep their skills current with the market and keep their heads down. It’s not hard to project that Windows only development is a dead end when even Microsoft is outright saying that all of its energy is going toward .Net Core and they have been moving toward cross platform development for the last half decade.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#482
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just in case I want to work for the one anecdotal company that uses Lisp I’ll keep that in mind... But seeing that I like the optionality of working for any of the dozens of companies that have job openings continuously for JavaScript, C#, C, C++, and even Python, I think I’ll stick with those....

So better keep up with Java, given the amount of job offers across the globe.

There is a big difference between choosing the less popular but still marketable technology and someone doggedly sticking with a technology that has being put in maintenance mode by the vendor or in the case of Lisp, a minuscule market.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? Why would you? What is the point of "escaping"? It is like asking, "how would Go world escape the grip of Google?" — no one cares to, because nobody asks Oracle for permission to make software for JVM. Java EE has been in maintenance mode for a long time, but Spring and Dropwizard are alive and well despite that. Incidentally, Nginx Unit has recently implement…

Oracle seems hell-bent on undoing the openness around Java that SUN was allowing. What I'm reading between the lines of this report from the Oracle-Eclipse negotiations is that Oracle wants to roll back the world to a "thou shall not have a JVM besides mine" state with a hefty price tag on commercial usage of their VM.

I'm sorry, but as bad as Oracle's sales and legal behavior has been, I don't see how the evidence supports your claims.

Oracle has open sourced (or deprecated and removed) the remaining commercial elements in the JDK -- OpenJDK now is truly the complete open reference implementation of the JDK, JRE, and JVM.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#484
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

ETL is the bread and butter of the company where I work and you can be sure Java is not even allowed near our systems.

We have thousands if not dozens of thousands of different data providers and it is mostly financial data.

Everything important is PHP and Python. It was Perl 10 years ago. There is some Java, but not in the ETL subsystems.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.

Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.

https://aws.amazon.com/windows/

We run nearly 2x more Windows Server instances than the next largest cloud provider, according to an IDC report.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm thanks for the info, I'll admit I haven't used pretty much any ecosystem outside of windows (aside from my new jobs Mac which drives me nuts(non coding job)), but haven't had a need to install any variant of Linux. Which still leaves me a tad confused, is the anger because c# is a propriety windows tech(I'm guessing from the responses - which btw thank you to the threads I don't respond to).

The anger is a "red vs. blue" mentality. They're Java developers, they always have been, and they always will be. They still think Microsoft--the EEE Microsoft of years past--somehow relates to their (Microsoft's) development tools and platforms org. It doesn't. Things aren't "changing," they've changed already . .NET Core is more than stable enough to run on any major platform and has been for quite some time now. C…

They have certainly changed – the .NET installer used to ask if you wouldn't mind participating in their product improvement program by sending data to Microsoft (defaulting to disabled by default), but now .NET Core will send your data to Microsoft by default without asking:

https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093

The data is supposedly anonymized, except sometimes (according to comments on above-mentioned issue) when it accidentally isn't. You can also disable it, except when the disabling mechanism is accidentally broken.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#487
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/

So 1% with a “25 year head start”?

I don't know where you're getting the 1% -- in some of those benchmarks it's much higher (and remember that Scala and Kotlin are also Java -- they rely on the same compilers, GCs and monitoring; they just replace the frontend compiler, which is less than 10% of the JDK). Also, the benchmarks are very simple, and hardly exercise the platform's power. And they don't measure other capabilities at all. For example, Go may not be far behind on performance, but its observability is shit, it doesn't have good dynamic linkage, and other important features.

Again, I am not saying that other platforms may not have advantages elsewhere (e.g. lower memory footprint, no warmup), but when it comes to compilation, GC and observability, Java is about a whole technological generation ahead.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that Java is entrenched in a lot of the enterprise space, but I think you're being quick to dismiss entrants that have gained steam in the last few years. For example, Go is becoming the default in Kubernetes applications. It's eating tech companies that became large in the last few years like Lyft and Uber. It'll spread to other large tech companies like Amazon or IBM with ease. It will possibly get pic…

Seriously, people. K8s is a container orchestration system. Yes, it's written in Go, like Docker itself. DevOps tooling is a niche area where Go has been very successful. But k8s runs whatever you put into your Docker containers. I've seen no indication of it changing which languages people choose to containerize (Node containers probably being way more common than Go ones). If anything, easy containerization negates…

> If anything, easy containerization negates one of Go's strongest selling points (i.e. standalone executables with no need for a runtime environment).

I don't know about that, I think that is still a strong selling point for Go, even in a containerized environment. Somewhere I saw a statistic that says over 90% of container images in the wild contain unpatched CVE vulnerabilities and (searching...) [1] here's an article that shows just how bad the problem is, according to this article in just the top 10 docker images, there are over 8000 known vulnerable paths.

The reason is probably not because those 10 products are simply nightmarish from a security perspective and expose the lions share of the vulnerabilities in their own code paths, it's because of unchecked dependencies. If someone took a tree shaker to those images and removed all of the unnecessary packages that aren't real dependencies, you see that number going down by probably about 30% if not more.

Even then, you're still seeing lots of potential issues caused by far-away dependencies that we do actually need, but don't really care about. There's something to be said for a development stack that is geared toward automatically pruning out packages you've included when the compiler can prove you're not even using them, and helping you reduce the scope and size of your external, far-away dependencies.

From an InfoSec perspective that's the biggest problem I see in containerized environments, (and true that just not using containers won't really make it much better) so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Go does all of that for us.

[1]: https://snyk.io/blog/top-ten-docker-images-contain-over-8000...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there's the evil implication of this aging, entrenched ecosystem. Companies who wrote their Java development process documentation did so in the 90's, with guidance from IBM or a "big 3," and now treat EVERY project in the business as though it was the same scale and complexity as the mainframe projects they were trying to supplement. Which is why it takes 6 months for me (on the FAST TRACK!) to even get a d…

LOL... someone woke up in the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Please don't do this here.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#490
post #109

I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment, sooner that we think, to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers... But it was a lot of time wasted: Apache Harmony/Java LibreOffice/OpenOffice MariaDB/MySQL Jenkins/Hudson now Eclipse/Java Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site... ... ht…

forgot Iluminos/OpenSolaris story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc#t=33m0s

https://blogs.eclipse.org/post/mike-milinkovich/update-jakar...

Note: Oracle ECM, WebCenter Content has no simple Virtual Document solution.

Post reply on HN