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GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

monal.im

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Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#481

Post by ryanwaggoner »

jacquesm wrote: post #462
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incredibly out of touch. I can virtually guarantee that a regulator or prosecutor who wanted to make an example of him could tear his business apart finding violations over 30+ years.

That's not exactly a new insight, Richelieu beat you to that one a couple of centuries ago. But that's just trying to stretch what we are discussing here: that it is possible to comply with the law in principle. That some overzealous prosecutor with a grudge could nail you might happen - in Russia, maybe even the USA. But frankly where I live I have not yet seen a case like that. We probably have them but not frequen…

Not the point. You’re making the case that you’re always fully compliant with all laws and have been for 30 years, because it’s just so damn effortless. It’s almost more work to NOT be compliant!!

And I’m saying that’s bullshit. You’re breaking laws left and right, but you just don’t get caught because enforcement of those laws is so inconsistent. And the GDPR is so much worse; I’m sure you’re not compliant with GDPR given how vague and over-reaching the law is, but you’re probably mostly compliant and you’re too small for anyone to care.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#482

Post by ryanwaggoner »

danbruc wrote: post #468
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s alarming that you don’t realize how insane this argument is. Now murder and keeping notes about someone you see in public are the same? You’re headed towards thought-crime with this; it’s basically murder to continue to hold an opinion of someone that they disapprove of, because “privacy”. Ridiculous.

Of course they are not the same but they share a common principle, i.e. you can not do arbitrary things involving other people. And nobody is talking about your opinions, you are free to think whatever you want, just as you are free to harm yourself or even commit suicide. But if your »thinking« involves information about other people, there are limits just as there are limits if you go from killing you to killing ot…

Wow. There you go again! So if my thinking involves someone else’s information, they have some right to make me change my thinking or punish me if I don’t??

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#483

Post by DanBC »

zerostar07 wrote: post #317
jacquesm wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not doing anything shady, if you have your house in order security wise and if you do not collect data that you have no use for you are 95% there. The remainder will maybe require consultation with a lawyer for an hour or two if you want to play it safe but you could also simply wait for a few months to see how it all plays out. If you are respectful of other people's privacy then there is very little chan…

> then you will be warned to become compliant long before you will be fined citation needed > if you do not collect data that you have no use for you are 95% there. I have always been respectful and even never required emails on signups. I am not 95% there because there is a ton more to do. In fact i am at 5% because i have a lot of small scale past projects. Not everyone is a VC-funded startup. That's the kind of em…

> citation needed

The 20 years of data protection enforcement we've had.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#484

Post by dogecoinbase »

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #463
jacquesm wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for making a coherent argument. You are missing one point I think: if not for those regulations those companies would love to do business. They are forbidden from doing business, this guy sees the law and runs off without even trying to become compliant. That's a different thing. There is no way that Kinder could be compliant with US law in such a way that they would not be exposed to what - to EU sensibili…

Bovril could easily comply. They would simply have to open a manufacturing facility that did not use UK beef. The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk. Kinder, I admit, has a more difficult problem, and has, in fact attempted to comply, by creating a completely different product with the same name.

Ah yes, "simply" open a manufacturing facility.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#485

Post by jacquesm »

fencepost wrote: post #398
jdietrich wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because European courts and regulatory authorities are not run by gibbering morons. The Data Protection Directive was materially similar to the GDPR and was enforced by the same supervisory authorities. The DPD gave member states total discretion as to the level of fines, with no upper limit. I have found no evidence whatsoever of irrationally large or unreasonable fines under the DPD. You could be breaking the law i…

Because European courts and regulatory authorities are not run by gibbering morons. Not the courts, but "Brexit"

That's pretty much the opposite.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#487

Post by DanBC »

zerostar07 wrote: post #368
jacquesm wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> citation needed Every statement issued by EU regulators to date. > I have always been respectful and even never required emails on signups. Good. > I am not 95% there because there is a ton more to do. Such as? > In fact i am at 5% because i have a lot of small scale past projects. You've had two full years to get this done. The law came into effect the 14th of April 2016. It is now May 2018. > Not everyone is a VC…

> 95% Such as? Everything. Even if you process just an IP you need to document your procedures, change privacy policies. If at any point you ask for anything you need to implement opt ins, a way for (unauthenticated) users to request their data (even if it's just 1 IP) etc. My point is that having negligible private data is not less of a compliance burden than having a lot of private data. > You've had two full years…

> you need to implement opt ins,

No. This is the myth that "consent is always required". There are several justifications for processing personal data, and consent is just one of them. There are others.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#488

Post by fcbrooklyn »

dogecoinbase wrote: post #484
fcbrooklyn wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bovril could easily comply. They would simply have to open a manufacturing facility that did not use UK beef. The French cheese makers could sort of comply, by pasteurizing their milk. Kinder, I admit, has a more difficult problem, and has, in fact attempted to comply, by creating a completely different product with the same name.

Ah yes, "simply" open a manufacturing facility.

There will be a cost involved. And presumably there will be some benefits that result. Those are precisely the parameters of OP's decision.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#489

Post by cyphar »

leereeves wrote: post #467
cyphar wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are required to comply with the laws of your country, not those of other countries. No, you are required to comply with the laws of any country you do business with. This applies to any type of business, and I don't see why "it's on the internet" appears to be the main counter-argument. If I buy something from you (via snail-mail or on the internet) and it doesn't follow the requirements of the consumer law in…

> and I don't see why "it's on the internet" appears to be the main counter-argument. Because by default any web site has, in the past, been open to people from any country that doesn't censor the web. Regulations like GDPR are making doing business in more than one country more difficult and encouraging a Balkanized web.

> Because by default any web site has, in the past, been open to people from any country that doesn't censor the web.

This has never been true since the internet was international. You have always had to comply with laws of countries you interact with, it's just that most people who ran internet businesses decided to ignore the law (just try hosting some copyright or patent infringing content on the internet and see how long it takes to have legal action applied, even if you aren't a resident in that country). And, despite the ethical questions about censorship, censorship is usually done through the laws of a country (for instance in Germany). So complying with censorship requests (or having your entire site blocked) is actually an example of complying with laws of other countries.

The world is made up of sovereign nations, and businesses that wish to interact with other sovereign nations must obey the restrictions that the both nations place on that interaction. If you don't like it, then don't do business with that nation. I cannot think of another industry where this concept is seen as foreign -- it's a very fundamental part of how the world has been structured for thousands of years. Just because it's much easier to conduct businesses overseas than it was 200 years ago doesn't change the fundamental properties of what you're doing.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#490

Post by fcbrooklyn »

subway wrote: post #479
jacquesm wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for making a coherent argument. You are missing one point I think: if not for those regulations those companies would love to do business. They are forbidden from doing business, this guy sees the law and runs off without even trying to become compliant. That's a different thing. There is no way that Kinder could be compliant with US law in such a way that they would not be exposed to what - to EU sensibili…

Kinder is an amusing example, since they decided to offer a compliant variant of their product in the US. https://www.today.com/food/kinder-joy-chocolate-eggs-are-com...

Yes. Rather a step back from the original offering isn't it? If I'm being honest, I couldn't give a damn about the kinder eggs prohibition, as I am not a child, and I do not have children. The Bovril issue is by far my biggest personal concern, although I'd really like to be able to buy raw milk cheese.
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