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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#481

Post by nickpsecurity »

NateDad wrote: post #116
falcolas wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." Not in my experience, and it's not the law (as taught in the myriad of training courses I've endured over the years). The man should have an opportunity to learn from this mistake, then be fired when he proves incapable of learning. Providing the warning and training is enough to legally cover the company's ass if the guy screws u…

It's not a mistake. He didn't leave the server room door open. He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume). If he hasn't learned to be respectful to women before now, it's not this guy's job to teach him.

" He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume)"

Good point. This kind of person will probably need more self-improvement lessons than most companies can justify investing in him. Plus likely cause other headaches. Best to get rid of him if claims are true.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#482

Post by tptacek »

balls187 wrote: post #473
tptacek wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

> there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. This is true. However, there is nothing also that stops individuals from filing costly "wrongful termination suits" against a company. In my little slice of the managerial world, we spend time with HR to fully document performance lapses, ensuring we have written statements clearly indicating expectations and whether they are met, solely because…

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits".

In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully".

In the US, unlawful termination occurs:

* When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created.

* When it has the effect of discriminating against a protected class.

* When it violates the ADA.

Employers in the US generally have no obligation whatsoever to provide "reasonable time to take corrective measures". Things like PIPs have two purposes:

* As an attempt to bulletproof firings that target ostensible members of a protected class

* As a humane / bloodless way of notifying employees that they're about to be fired and should start looking for a new job.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#483

Post by runako »

anjc wrote: post #297
Loughla wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was saying you were wrong that Milf doesn't mean mother I would like to fuck, and that it could be construed as harassing language.

Again, I'm not saying that this wasn't unwanted behaviour, and I'm not saying that it wouldn't be construed as harassment if it continued. But in court (it wouldn't ever get to court but) they'd just say "but it's in the Webster's dictionary as a noun and is synonymous with 'attractive', it wasn't meant literally". Then in my country the guy would be able to sue for wrongful dismissal. I get what you're saying though…

I got sucked far enough into this thread and its references to MILF in the dictionary that I became curious as to whether Webster's actually includes MILF. I don't have a printed copy of Webster's handy, and it's not in webster.com.

Dictionary.com has it as follows:

noun, Slang: Vulgar. 1. an attractive older woman, usually a mother, who is regarded as a sexual object by a younger man. Origin of MILF Expand M(other) I(‘d) L(ike) to F(uck)

Oxford online is roughly the same.

I'm not sure I'd want either of those read to a jury as part of a description of conduct I chose (as a manager) to ignore.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#484

Post by balls187 »

tptacek wrote: post #482
balls187 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. This is true. However, there is nothing also that stops individuals from filing costly "wrongful termination suits" against a company. In my little slice of the managerial world, we spend time with HR to fully document performance lapses, ensuring we have written statements clearly indicating expectations and whether they are met, solely because…

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

> Employers in the US generally have no [legal] obligation whatsoever to provide "reasonable time to take corrective measures".

They do, however, want to CYA.

> In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully".

And "unlawfully" is determined by the US Courts.

> If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits".

If by "safe" you mean "safe from litigation" then yes, that is a risk you take when terminating an employee. I'm certainly not advocating against firing people. I am saying that in my experience, I have to work with HR to have sufficient documentation.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#487

Post by nickpsecurity »

Nadya wrote: post #361
jasonpeacock wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, you don't know what will happen until it does happen. It could be as simple as "Wow, Joe reported Bob for sexual harassment, but Bob didn't do anything wrong - I was there. Now I have to be extra-careful around Joe to avoid getting reported myself!" And there you go - Joe is now suffering from "retaliation" and being treated special for speaking up.

That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively…

It is. I even did it briefly a few times when claims were brought against me until things were sorted out. In one example, an attractive and persuasive woman sent a shit-storm of rumors and claims my way through various parties that I quickly traced to her. Fortunately, the people (including women) who knew me were able to spot that they were bogus since the good and bad of my style is well-known. Genuineness occasionally pays off I guess. And the claims didn't fit it.

Further investigation confirmed my counter-claims that she wanted my job and the next promotion after it. Instead of outperforming me, she decided to simultaneously create situations where I looked unfit and sexist with rumors and a clique of buddies backing it up. They'd benefit if she was promoted. She never got fired like the guys do in similar situations in that company but did back-off and quit after upward-movement was cut off.

I agree it harms both genders. Work was never fun during any of these situations as people started practicing self-censorship. Not just me or the men. It's why I fight such non-sense and Codes of Conduct that facilitate it, too. Fortunately, each event was taken care of, people became themselves again, and work went back to productive and fun. Cuz real people are more interesting than fake ones. :)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#488

Post by anotherevan »

roasm wrote: post #421
trebor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I would add to patio11's advice is to go back to the employee and let her know what's about to happen. If you do it without any warning, then yes she might feel that it was a breach of trust. But, if you tell her before you fire the guy you can maintain trust.

A valid reason to give to the victim is that you're not just protecting her but any other current or potential victims (using nicer language than this). That will help her feel good about coming forth with the information; she's not causing trouble for the company but actually saving someone else from harassment.

Yes, I really liked patio11's likening it to embezzlement, being a crime against the company (although in the case of harassment, it is a crime against both the company and the individual recipients).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#489

Post by nickpsecurity »

lotharbot wrote: post #383
Nadya wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively…

As a professional educator (at many different levels -- a college TA, a museum educator with K-12 programs, and working in an elementary school) the expectation I was given was to never be alone in a place that isn't publicly visible with any student under the age of 18, of any gender, ever. With students over the age of 18, there was still a strong expectation to keep student-teacher interactions semi-public. (I am…

It's a smart move given what I've seen. The sad thing is that some of the best innovators started with one-on-one instruction from teachers that recognized their potential. Many people are also private or in a situation where their social circumstances might make them be more private about the research/project than usual.

So, such policies reduce liability but probably have a cost to society. I thought about surveillance cameras as a solution. Then, a headline popped into mind: "voyeuristic professor discovered to have..." Just can't win when the threat is peoples' imagination and desire to find a negative. :)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#490

Post by tptacek »

balls187 wrote: post #484
tptacek wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

> Employers in the US generally have no [legal] obligation whatsoever to provide "reasonable time to take corrective measures". They do, however, want to CYA. > In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully". And "unlawfully" is determined by the US Courts. > If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination…

Can you point to the law you're concerned might be violated in this scenario?
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