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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#471

Post by goblin89 »

scrrr wrote: post #118

I'd rather have my feelings hurt in exchange for an honest opinion than to hear worthless words that sound nice. Always. And I'd always prefer a competent asshole boss to a friendly guy that doesn't know how to do his job. Personally, I think too much niceness and, by extension, political correctness is bad for honesty, truth, effectiveness and, ultimately, for culture. The culture in the office and the culture as a…

I agree, but with a reservation that personalities are different. Someone less sociable (like me) may even confuse extensively sugar-coated criticism for an approval. Those more sophisticated and well-versed in politics would see right through it—and direct criticism may sound insulting to them. (I believe the latter kind isn't very common among programmer folk, but still.)

IMO it's important that a person can position themselves in a company so that they mostly communicate with colleagues who share communication style.

Anyway, Linus is known for his personality even outside Linux kernel development team, so I wonder whether this issue is blown out of proportion.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#472

Post by nknighthb »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #399
qwerta wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically she implies he is a racist? Is not this even worse abuse than initial Linus rant?

1. I didn't find/read Sarah's up thread message. But the snippet implies somebody is (pick one of) sexist/racist/etc. Not necessarily Linus. 2. Accusing someone of sexism, racism, etc, is not "abuse". It is never an insult. If you get accused of it, consider being less sexist/racist/etc rather than taking offense.

Even if you had, you would still have been taking things wildly out of context. You are peeking into a subset of a single day in a virtual "office". The conversation you're seeing snippets of is against a backdrop of more than two decades of that office's operation and social interactions you obviously have not observed.

Linus swears a lot (compared to an American), and sometimes blows up at maintainers who do stupid things. That's what this is about. Not racism, sexism, or any other form of oppression you might want it to be about.

When you walk in on a conversation and hear "I keep her in a cage", they might be talking about their pet rabbit, not their wife.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#473

Post by snowwrestler »

xradionut wrote: post #419
snowwrestler wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words. The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk. One of the key insights of working togeth…

You should enlist in the military and see how well that works. :)

Some of the best corporate managers I've ever worked with were veterans. Contrary to popular belief, the military is not an organization that uses abuse as a management tool beyond boot camp.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#474

Post by snowwrestler »

riggins wrote: post #393
snowwrestler wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who complains about language is implicitly saying they're unable to control themselves and how they react to words. The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. Total equanimity is something to strive for in our own lives, but it should not be a criteria by which we judge other people. And it should not be an excuse to be a jerk. One of the key insights of working togeth…

The reality is that most people (probably even including you) cannot do this 100%. All people definitely can do this. They just choose not to. I won't say that I always do, but I try to keep it mind. Its a lesson I really try to internalize. Try this thought experiment. Let's say I show up at your office with a duffel bag filled with $1M cash ... and I said to you, snowwrestler 'I'm now going to make a bunch of nasty…

Yes because you've given me a reason to do so that makes a lot of sense from my perspective. (One of the distinguishing characteristics of money is that it appears advantageous to everyone's perspective.)

Edit to add: So because it's so well-compensated, I don't think that's a good example of equanimity. Equanimity means remaining calm and pleasant even when I'm not being paid--or if I'm being asked to pay.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#475

Post by cdmckay »

slantyyz wrote: post #410
jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

I think it's fair to say that Linus can be unprofessional. Just because you've got great accomplishments doesn't mean you're professional. But what people forget is that Linus is essentially a rock star in his field. Because he's a rock star who continuously proves it with results, Linus can say and do whatever he wants. He's earned it, and most people will not only tolerate his abrasiveness, but they'll accept it. M…

I don't think you ever earn being a douchebag.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#476

Post by officemonkey »

vacri wrote: post #467
officemonkey wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rubbish. You're acting in self-centered, antagonistic manner that is aggravating the relationship.

I also think exactly the same thing of you, given that you think I'm stupid enough to believe that being called a douche is 'constructive criticism'. It doesn't require profanity to insult someone.

If you're offended by the word douche to describe a jerk, then we occupy different cultures.

Similarly, if someone thinks being called a "jerk" is an insult devoid of constructive criticism, then they're likely either intentionally obdurate or they lack the self-awareness to identify their failings.

I'm perfectly aware of my ability to be a douche. I just choose who to be a jerk to. Strangers on the internet: possibly; colleagues I work with: not so much.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#477

Post by ericd »

flumbaps wrote: post #145
ericd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting the person probably serves as a filter - at that point that person either shapes up or stops committing, either of which is a better outcome for Linus than that person continuing to commit crap code for Linus to have to look at/approve. Your more reasonable comment doesn't have the same effect, so it's not the strictly better solution, depending on what Linus values.

Why not just ask them not to commit?

Note in my comment that I said that some people will reject his insult and try harder next time, which potentially adds another good contributor to the project. Just telling them to go away and never come back doesn't do that, and is probably more hurtful to boot.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#478

Post by anthonyb »

Ygg2 wrote: post #209
anthonyb wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure there's a reason that you don't have a wife, if that's your attitude...

That was low, I don't agree with him, but seriously that ad hominem was disgusting and out of place. I am now poorer for the time wasted replying to your post.

O right - my reply is disgusting ad hominem and out of place, but suggesting that you call your wife "ludicrously stupid" and "extremely dumb" is not?

Edit: Just saw your reply to the OP: "If she is dimwitted to a point that she doesn't understand even when it's explained, I'd try to find a new wife."

Words fail me.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#479

Post by scotty79 »

pmelendez wrote: post #309
joshguthrie wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus is not your boss. Nobody is forcing you to contribute to the kernel. If you want to, he's the "benevolent dictator". If you don't agree, "fork it and go your own way" as someone else said. It may look like masochism, but people who work with a "benevolent dictator" know what they are in for. We don't need to be "protected" and if you don't like it, just don't come, the same way I'm not going to play with soccer…

> "Linus is not your boss." From Dictionary.com, a boss is: 3. a person who makes decisions, exercises authority, dominates, etc.: My grandfather was the boss in his family. So, for the people who is working on the linux kernel project, Linus is indeed their boss.

Linus exercises authority over his project. He decides which contribution to take in and which to leave out. He is a boss of linux. But not the boss of people who contibute because he has no authority over them to exercise.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#480

Post by caycep »

garrison wrote: post #383
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 Here is a preview: >What the F*CK, guys? >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never >even test-compiled it, did you?

I don't believe that quote is what she had an issue with. See http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2

If that is what started it off, then I feel she more or less either misinterpreted what was being discussed in that thread, or else is deliberately picking a fight.
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