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Linus on "acting professionally"

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Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#301

Post by zorange »

columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I agree with everything this person is saying. Linus is definitely acting the way he does because he can. He definitely makes some good points but being obnoxious and accepting that behavior isn't right. Being obnoxious has just worked for him because he is very independent, capable and doesn't need to deal with people.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#302

Post by wozniacki »

corresation wrote: post #224
DanBC wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you say. The problem that you don't explicitly mention is that people see Linus behaving this way and feel it's acceptable, and they carry on that behaviour. Some open source environments are toxic and horrible and it's hard to correct that when you have very public figures acting in that toxic horrible way.

In no way is he acting in a "toxic horrible way". Some people simply have very, very thin skin and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control. Linus doesn't have to be put in his place, and if you don't like that tough luck. Linus is absolutely right that in the professional sense the same behavior simply moves to the shadows. By being professional we vent t…

By being professional we vent the same feelings in hushed murmurs and ever-so-gentle sideband criticism.

This is a hugely astute observation. I agree with it wholly.

and the judgment of behavior -- the social expectations -- is absolutely a thinly-veiled tactic of control.

However this is slightly troubling, depending on who is being addressed.

In the court of public opinion, this "social expectations is a thinly-veiled tactic of control" will never fly.

Even in these post-formal-etiquette times.

Without implying too much, I'd say that this is partly the reason that programmers (or the technology set at large) cannot appeal to the sentiments of the society.

That is partly the reason why industry lobby groups have a tough time communicating the general appeals of technology firms on Capitol Hill.

Sensible thinking would suggest that these manner of affairs, while seemingly harmless within technology circles, doesn't help anyone's cause when the support of the larger public and/or governmental agencies and courts is needed.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#303

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

podperson wrote: post #294
DodgyEggplant wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus manages combined efforts of hundreds of people for years, probably leading the most successful open source project ever. Without salaries, without command and rule authority, without perks, without shared office space, even without HR. He probably knows something about what it takes to manage people

Or maybe he's just so talented that he can carry a huge interpersonal handicap. Actually, this email is pretty polite and to-the-point. I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here. The thing is, some people spend a lot of effort when writing to check that they don't accidentally leave "sharp edges" in their writing (and then they still fai…

>I don't know exactly what it is that he said that was offensive in private, but he's actually being pretty reasonable here.

I think what's being discussed is Linus' reaction to someone's patch on the lkml a few days ago. https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132

Here is a preview:

  >What the F*CK, guys?



  >This piece-of-shit commit is marked for stable, but you clearly never

  >even test-compiled it, did you?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#304

Post by vacri »

officemonkey wrote: post #217
vacri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Constructive criticism isn't insulting by definition. Calling someone a douche isn't constructive criticism. And there's a difference between attacking a person and attacking the actions - and look at what Torvalds does. Even his famous "shut the fuck up Mauro" comment is telling Mauro that his behaviour is inappropriate. He's not saying 'Mauro, you are a douche' directly insulting the guy, he's saying "I…

Calling someone a douche is constructive criticism. If I call you a douche, it means you're acting in self-centered, antagonistic manner that aggravating the relationship. Of course some people don't care about that. People don't fix things they don't feel are broken.

Rubbish. Constructive criticism requires input on specific paths to improve the situation. Telling someone they're a douche is just applying a generic insult. It's not even criticism of any kind, as douche is nonspecific.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#305

Post by gadders »

claudius wrote: post #237
doctorfoo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News: Where IQ and intelligence trumps being pleasant. So many tech types are assholes.

You'd not take intelligence over ‘being pleasant’? I tend to enjoy the company of an intelligent asshole more than that of a ‘pleasant’ idiot any day.

No-one is irreplacable. Assholes should be fired.

[edited the obvious typo]

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#306

Post by vacri »

jonahx wrote: post #259
vacri wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false representation of how Torvalds behaves, since pretty much every time one of this "oo, he swore!" threads pops up, he also explains why he has problems. And it's never been half in all caps.

Actually, not really: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=135628421403144&w=2

Please actually read the link you've just posted.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#307

Post by peterwwillis »

This really stands out: "people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways."

Stop considering emotional outbursts, negative attitudes, lack of compassion and childishness as "normal urges". Regardless of your opinion on professionalism, it's just fucked up to be rude to people.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#308

Post by flagnog »

VikingCoder wrote: post #272
columbo wrote: post #200

This is another great example of why you can't take successful people and distil them down to their base components and say "ah, this is what made him great!" I believe being a loud-abrasive-dictator works for Linus because he is famous for being a loud-abrasive-dictator. That's not important. What is important is the reader. Let's be clear on a few things #1 - Linus doesn't run a business. He's the kernel admin, he'…

I have a huge problem with what you're saying - you are nowhere establishing what would be going TOO FAR, or how people should react, if they believe he has gone too far. For a completely imperfect analogy, it's okay that [project leader X] makes some sexual jokes every now and then. But if he sexually assaulted someone, that would be too far. Is it possible, in your mind, for Linus to go TOO FAR in one of his rants,…

And that's the beauty of the GPL - if you whiny fucks don't like it, fork it.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#309

Post by pmelendez »

joshguthrie wrote: post #253
pmelendez wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"He gets a free card to be rude and you get a free card to not like him" No, he doesn't. If your boss or your client would talk to you in that tone you would call it verbal abuse. There is no such thing as a jerk free card, you can always be one but that doesn't mean is excusable. "I am yet to see him abusing anyone. Verbal abuse mentioned is just swearing in aggressive tone of voice." This is not the first time tha…

Linus is not your boss. Nobody is forcing you to contribute to the kernel. If you want to, he's the "benevolent dictator". If you don't agree, "fork it and go your own way" as someone else said. It may look like masochism, but people who work with a "benevolent dictator" know what they are in for. We don't need to be "protected" and if you don't like it, just don't come, the same way I'm not going to play with soccer…

> "Linus is not your boss."

From Dictionary.com, a boss is:

3. a person who makes decisions, exercises authority, dominates, etc.: My grandfather was the boss in his family.

So, for the people who is working on the linux kernel project, Linus is indeed their boss.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#310

Post by rmrfrmrf »

claudius wrote: post #283
jakobe wrote: post #37

Torvalds seems to be a real bully. And it hurts me to see all these responses justifying his behaviour, as if this is the way it must be. Just look at this message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1TUvG3J... There is no justification for this kind of behaviour. If anybody else behaved this way, they would be sent to a psychiatrist. But apparently since it's Linus Torvalds, he's just being a littl…

Which part of his behaviour in this email is unacceptable in particular? Let’s look at it: > Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP! Okay, so he tells Mauro to stop talking because he apparently thinks that what Mauro was saying is wrong. To make very sure that what he wrote is read, he puts in fancy caps and some light swearing, which, however, is not directed at anyone in particular. A more polite version of this would have been…

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