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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#471
post #274
post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

We have an UG for that. A GmbH is simply the wrong legal form for that sort of thing. You can create an UG with a single Euro on the bank account (and then immediately go bankrupt once you need to pay the notary).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#472
post #10
post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

In Germany it might be easier to open a company remotely via Estonia

You should Google "Place of effective management"

A lot of the entrepreneurs I meet become tax & social insurance fraudsters as soon as I mention this, because they think they can setup a company somewhere but live in Spain, without paying or registering companies here.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#473
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

Not quite. In the US this condition is handled at the back end. Running a corporation or LLC without sufficient capitalization can be grounds for piercing the liability shield in a lawsuit.

> Running a corporation or LLC without sufficient capitalization can be grounds for piercing the liability shield in a lawsuit.

Which is exactly how it should be handled, IMO: Deal with the abuse situations directly.

Forcing new companies to capitalize with an arbitrary amount of money at time of founding penalizes small players who want to start a company. It's also not a hurdle at all for large players who want to commit large frauds.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#474

I don’t know the specifics but the OP chose a complicated setup. Why not just use a GmbH which is the equivalent to an Inc in the US? The capital requirement is 12500 in the bank not 25000 as stated. There are online services that run the whole process for you similar to Stripe Atlas. Even setting up a UG (with 1 euro stating capital) is very easy but you have to upgrade to a GmbH once you receive investment (investo…

This. Is founded (and liquidated) my GmbH with only 12.500€ deposited to the business bank account. Note this is not a cost, it just moves to the corporate account and can be used to pay expenses (notary, lawyers, hardware etc.). The remaining 12.500 are a permanent loan that the proprietory needs to cover on in case there is a liquidity shortage or liability suit etc. In my case I never paid the remaining 12.500€, and in liquidation process it balances out to zero.

But if you think founding a german company is difficult, wait until have you do an ordered liquidation (not bankruptcy) - that is madness on its own.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#475
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You phrase this as if it’s absurd. Why should it be possible to offshore your future capital gains without paying an exit tax? You live in a country with a tax system that assumes people pay into it.

Unrealized capital gains taxes generally are a bit absurd, but I can see how the state would feel forced to do it if you're leaving. Seems like there should be some way to get a registered agent or something to keep the old company legally "in Germany" while you leave, but idk

You can avoid being taxed on unrealized gains by realizing them first ;)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#476
As much as I would like to agree with you about how non-digitized and rotten and crooked the whole notary etc system is - as someone who has incorporated and invested in dozens of German companies (UGs, GmbHs, and GmbH & Co. KGs), I’d seriously reconsider the UG & Co. KG structure for a one-person software business.

The tax explanation in the post is oversimplified.

Examples: With a KG, if the business earns €100k, that profit is attributed directly to you and taxed as personal income, whether you distribute it or not. At higher income levels, that’s roughly 45% including solidarity surcharge (and potentially church tax).

With a UG or GmbH, the company pays Körperschaftssteuer plus Gewerbesteuer, typically around 30% combined (depending on where its incorporated). On €100k profit, about €70k remains inside the company. If you later distribute it, you’ll pay capital gains tax based on the Halbeinkünfteverfahren on the distribution - which is 25% + Soli, bringing the total tax burden to roughly the same level as the KG.

The key difference is that with a UG/GmbH you can leave profits inside the company. That money can be reinvested into the business, other startups, ETFs, stocks, etc. - most often with only 1,5% effective tax while the money is working for you. You defer the second layer of taxation until you actually take the money out.

Also, you can pay yourself a salary. Whatever portion you pay out as salary is taxed personally just as it would be in the KG structure - but this time its company expenses, so no double taxation here either.

A few other points:

* A GmbH no longer requires €25k - its only 12,5k€ - and its also not to be locked away forever. The money can be used for legitimate business expenses immediately after incorporation.

* A decent tax advisor can usually get a VAT ID much faster than described in the article.

* A UG is widely accepted in the startup ecosystem. I’ve never seen customers reject an otherwise attractive startup because it started life as a UG. For investors, it's routine.

* Converting a UG into a GmbH later is routine, if you want to start small. If you have the 12,5k€ money, do a GmbH to save administrative hassle.

* A UG & Co. KG creates significantly more administration: two entities, two annual accounts, additional bookkeeping, additional filings, and additional advisor costs.

Of course there are valid reasons to use a GmbH & Co. KG, especially for complicated co-investment arrangements, but from what you wrote, that's not the case here. Therefore, for a solo software founder, I’d question whether the additional complexity buys you anything meaningful.

Bonus tip: You MIGHT want to consider owning your share in the Software UG not directly but through another UG, paolino UG or so. When you foresee to sell your business for significant money later, then you'll have exactly the same advantage, the money can stay in the company for reinvestment and you don't have to give up 50% of your capital gains in the moment you sign the sellers agreement. You CAN't do this easily later.

Not legal or tax advice. Just my personal experience.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#477
post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

That system is silly. I can open a company, work for a year, acrue debt, acrue tax debt, close it. Nothing will happen. Company "estate" will be sold to cover the debt, which can also be nothing.

No, if you don't handle this correctly you become personally liable

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are still a German tax resident , they are committing tax evasion . § 1 Abs. 1 KStG

It doesn't really matter. If you do business in Germany you are evading taxes just by the fact of doing business. Everything and anything you make belongs to the government. It is an unfortunate loophole in the law that temporarily permits you to steal some of your profit back from the government where it rightfully belongs. Yeah, this is sarcasm, but not really. The practical reality is that it simply makes no sense…

> OP missed six months of opportunity

OP missed six months of opportunities because he is an idiot, that has been scammed by a tax consultancy that is interested in his money.

He should have setup a UG, start the business and invest into building a GmbH.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#479

Start a limited liability company in Latvia or Estonia. It will take you 1 business day, you can do it remotely, and, because of EU laws, you can do business everywhere in EU. Basically nothing you can do with Gmbh that you cannot do with Latvian or Estonian equivalent https://www.vid.gov.lv/en/first-steps-entrepreneurs

The tax office can decide that the company is, in fact, a German company if the founder lives and operates in Germany. Now the company paperwork has to be done in two countries. I don't know what the tax implications are. Applies to all EU countries btw, you can't just choose a different jurisdiction for your new company risk-free.

The tax office WILL 100% decide you have to pay corporate taxes in Germany - and it does not need to decide that in the first place, you will have to report it proactively on your own to the tax office and file for taxes.
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