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PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

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Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#471

Post by jkelleyrtp »

MoltenMan wrote: post #467
dragonwriter wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but can't you at least see how weird it is that 'Women in STEM' is very accepted but a 'Men in STEM' program would never fly? I can see how it might seem weird to an alien who knew what men and women were, but had no context for the existing state and history of society. I can't see how it would seem weird to anyone else, however.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment about what exactly rubs me the wrong way, so here's an analogy: imagine you went to school and the the teacher lined everyone up by gender and handed out a cookie to everyone. And then she handed out two extra cookies to all of the girls! You would be annoyed! Does it matter that back at home guys normally get 4 extra cookies every day? No, because as a guy, you don't see o…

I think a hallmark of 2025 is a resounding lack of empathy and compassion from people. Maybe's it's smartphones, social media, or some sort of existential doomerism.

To reframe your scenario: imagine you went to a school and some of your classmates came from poor families and couldn't afford clothes, food, or a laptop etc. To help those students, the teacher used class funds to buy them new shoes and get them a nice laptop to get their work done. Do you still think it's unfair that you don't get new shoes, laptop, or cookies?

The solution to your original question is to understand why the teacher is giving girls 4 cookies and then just be happy that more people get a fair shot at life.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#472

Post by anon291 »

ModernMech wrote: post #377

[flagged]

I mean pls also attracts a TON of rad trad Catholics. It turns out being unable to follow social cues makes you more amenable to following niche fields as well as a bit esoteric in your philosophers and lifestyle. I count myself as one of these as well lol.

That being said, this is also problematic. Because if the field is dominated by queer people as you point out, then shouldn't you try to balance it out and add straight cis people? I mean, you will correctly point out that the average person wouldn't fit in.

Well welcome to the club..

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#473

Post by klipt »

dragonwriter wrote: post #461
MoltenMan wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there are really enough details on the parent comment to judge it either way, but can't you at least see how weird it is that 'Women in STEM' is very accepted but a 'Men in STEM' program would never fly? Whether or not white men have hidden advantages over non white men (and I'm not saying that they don't! Simply that they are not clearly visible), it should be very clear that there are large non hidden…

> but can't you at least see how weird it is that 'Women in STEM' is very accepted but a 'Men in STEM' program would never fly? I can see how it might seem weird to an alien who knew what men and women were, but had no context for the existing state and history of society. I can't see how it would seem weird to anyone else, however.

If you include biological and medical sciences in STEM, STEM graduates have been majority female for decades.

Where is the DEI for men in the female dominated STEM subjects?

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#474

Post by ModernMech »

ethical_source wrote: post #403
ModernMech wrote: post #377

[flagged]

Do you understand, intellectually, that quite a few of your colleagues find gestures like juxtaposing the Rust logo and the LGBTQ* flag off-putting and resent being unable articulate our discomfort while all your specious complaints get addressed instantly? We don't bear you any ill will. We just don't want your sexuality shoved in our faces. I've been hearing claims of the necessity of doing so for over a decade. It…

Let me put it this way: computing as a field, and programming languages in particular would not be where they are today without the hard work and dedication of LGBTQ people in particular. I mean, we have to look no further than Alan Turing to understand this at a visceral level. In his tradition, LGBTQ people flock toward this field.

The reason the flag is in the Rust discord logo isn't because people are throwing their sexuality in your face. They put that flag up as a signal that the community is safe for other like-minded people. The flag stays up because the people who built the community want it up and keep it up. So the logo isn't juxtaposed with the LGBTQ flag -- juxtaposition implies contrast. Rust is intrinsically LGBTQ because it's built by LGBTQ people. That's the essence of community and languages if anything are communities.

This is what happens when someone's mere existence in public life is considered dangerous or "your sexuality being shoved in our faces" -- they stay inside, they find community in secret places where few people go, and they put up signs to signal to others similarly situated that they are welcome.

So of course we're not gonna take the flag down, it's up for a reason! Won't come down until that reason it's up goes away.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#475

Post by ModernMech »

VagabundoP wrote: post #328
nerevarthelame wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those tech companies make a habit of funding "pro-DEI" organizations, their contracts with the US government could be jeoparized. There's a reason that Google, Amazon, and Microsoft all gave Trump money to demolish the East Wing of the White House and build a ballroom. And it's not their love of ballroom dancing.

It is literally quid pro quo right now. you have to play the game and I don't blame them as such. But PSF doing this and not playing the game is really awesome. I just hope they can fund themselves through other means. EU should be stepping up more with funding for projects like this as a replacement for US tech. Major secure reliable funding for open source projects that EU infrastructure can be built on would only…

> I don't blame them as such.

I do! Have you read Timothy Snyder yet? He warns that most of the dictator's power is granted willingly. That's what this is, so to the extent you believe they are blameless, their acquiescence is in real terms making it so much worse:

  "Do not obey in advance. Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then offer themselves without being asked. A citizen who adapts in this way is teaching power what it can do." -- Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century
With great power comes great responsibility. Yet somehow we've created a society in America where power comes with no responsibility at all except to enrich one's self and shareholders. Zero responsibility to the Constitution and to the country which gave them the necessary workforce, marketplace, rule of law, military, courts, patent protection, police, schools, universities, research funding, land, roads, shipping lanes, trade deals, political stability, etc. to come to fruition. Once you're rich enough, apparently it's fine to cast all our institutions into the sea, because if not you might have a rough quarter, or maybe you won't get that merger approved. It's just playing the game, who can blame them?

Meanwhile, just to be clear about the game being played, food stamps are set to expire for 40 million people this week, and healthcare premiums are set to double in just a few months. I don't believe tech corporations have any plans to help Americans with their food and healthcare needs, despite being keen to chip in for the ballroom gilding.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#476

Post by klipt »

th wrote: post #341

It seems like a number of the "DEI is anti-merit discrimination" messages in this thread are overlooking how DEI work usually works. A relevant tweet from 2016 ( https://x.com/jessicamckellar/status/737299461563502595 ): > Hello from your @PyCon Diversity Chair. % PyCon talks by women: (2011: 1%), (2012: 7%), (2013: 15%), (2014/15: 33%), (2016: 40%). #pycon2016 Increased diversity in communities usually comes from ac…

[flagged]

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#477

Post by Terr_ »

dekhn wrote: post #312
Terr_ wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> putting a noose around their neck and handing the other end to the Trump administration Pretty much every "negotiation" with the Trump administration seems to work that way: An iterated prisoner's-dilemma, where any cooperation from you just means they'll betray you even harder next time...

Take a look at MIT's response to the administration regarding the University Compact ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_for_Academic_Excellenc... ). You can see that MIT has an excellent understanding on how to reply. AFAICT the administration did not reply furiously (if I missed their reply, I woudl appreciate a link to it). I can also predict the next step here: UT Austin is likely to agree to the compact and…

I have—fortunately—very little personal experience with being extorted by corrupt officials, but I'd wager another facet is to try to ensure all communication is public and recorded.

This forces them to cloak their real demands in something deniable, and that means you can play naive and act like the subtext was never seen.

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#479

Post by seattle_spring »

mikestew wrote: post #420
zb3 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Is this one of those “what about white guys?” complaints, or am I misreading? Because the implied qualification for “subset of people” is “underrepresented”. Any political/cultural undertones are on you.

Yes. They've got several other comments in this same thread honestly curious why there aren't outreach programs for "conservatives."

As if any of the tech companies would have had even a fraction of their success if they were ran like a Truth Social forum...

Re: PSF has withdrawn $1.5M proposal to US Government grant program

#480

Post by maddmann »

sophrosyne42 wrote: post #463
adriand wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI is at its heart a type of discrimination. You might argue that the end justifies the means, but if intermediate step is that a person gets different treatment depending on their sex or skin colour, then it is discrimination. The purpose of DEI is to rectify the discrimination that is already present. It isn't as though we live in a discrimination-free world and then DEI arrived on the scene and suddenly started…

The purpose of DEI is to enforce what is idealized as the equal outcome, assuming that all observed differences are the result of discrimination. The problem is that it has not been shown that all observed differences are the result of discrimination as opposed to preference, ability, or other uncontrollable factors not related to discrimination but which are reasonable bases for the difference. There are many cases…

“The purpose of DEI is to enforce what is idealized as the equal outcome, assuming that all observed differences are the result of discrimination“

I don’t think a single proponent of DEI has ever said this, and it is telling to me that you are misinterpreting it with such a politicized slant. Maybe you need to think about reading some other opinion pieces on this from a much broader spectrum of perspectives?

I’ve been through many DEI programs while I worked in non profits in Upstate NY. The core focus of those programs was often to bring awareness to historical discrimination, and attempt to create environments in organizations where that does not reoccur.

I’m sure the approach differs across the spectrum but to me it was a good faith attempt at righting historical wrongs and attempting to avoid the historical discrimination.

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