Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
>libs think Please don’t bring that nonsense here
Fascinating watching the vote count on this slide up and down even when the other comment isn’t viewable
At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
471–480 of 585 posts
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#472I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…
This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.
In the UK class is about your education, how you speak and who your parents are and, to a lesser extent, money.
In the US I get the impression that it is much more about money. And therefore less static.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#473I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…
I've been following this since the guardian wrote about it, maybe 2011 or 2013 (private eye was earlier) It was insane. I couldn't understand the lack of fuss. Maybe it is because as a programmer I guess that 95 percent of all software is complete shit and most of the developers don't know or don't care. You've hit the nail on the head "why would anyone want a middle class life" yeah they have never known anything le…
>One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells
She was very nearly parachuted in a Bishop of London, off the 'success' of her term in the post office:
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mean to let the leadership off the hook. What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. There were two phases though: the initial rollout, and sometime later the coverup. If they had asked very reasonable questions about the software during the rollout there would have been no need for a coverup. No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post…
>What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. This, so much this. Not ONLY that but they kept DOUBLING DOWN for YEARS. I SO SO wish they would be held accountable for the pain, suffering, Chapter 11's, AND the suicides.
Bankruptcy is probably not chapter 11 in the UK. (or is it?)
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402
Reminds me somewhat of the child sex abuse hysteria in the 80s/90s involving daycare centers and the many horrific accusations that people took at face value and without question, being (rightfully) concerned for the wellbeing of the children. It was finally understood that it was relatively easy to plant false memories in young children through suggestive questioning. People went to jail for years before their convi…
It is crazy to think that anyone believed these nursery workers were committing massive levels of abuse on children in broad daylight at the nursery. Somewhere that parents were coming and going all the time. I can't imagine what it was like for the people wrongly accused.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What about Fujitsu? Why can't the government make Fujitsu pay for the destruction caused by their shitty software? Because the software didn't cause it. Look, by all accounts the software was/is a piece of piss, but what made it such an egregious scandal is how the Post Office leadership dealt with things. There was really no good reason for that to happen. They just ignored reports of problems (proper reports writ…
I'm going to have to pull you up on this detail, as you seem to care about the details. Fujitsu/ICL won the contract to develop and run Horizon. They got a commission on every EFTPOS sale. They paid for all the computers, all the network setup, all the staff training. They literally ran the helpline. If you were a sub-postmaster and had a problem with Horizon, you called Fujitsu. It was Fujitsu that then told you tha…
Indeed. Fujitsu were totally complicit in the false accusations and the coverup.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#477This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…
I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being r…
>And was being run by people who did not want to "harm the brand"
We've seen this time and again. Organizations would rather throw people under the bus than damage the organizations reputation/brand. For example, the Church of England has tried to cover up numerous sexual abuse scandals. This is a recent and particularly nasty case:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cje0y3gqw1po
The irony is that the coverups generally don't work for long, and the reputational damage is all the worse for the coverup.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#478This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…
I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.
I think the Internet is gradually destroying them economically. Google stole their lunch money. Unfortunately it is also destroying the broadsheet papers. I'm not sure any of them profitable now. And that means much less investigative journalism.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.
Aren't defamation laws in the UK almost shockingly restrictive? How the hell are they able to operate?
It is so expensive to sue somebody for libel that it is out of reach for most people. No matter how egregious the libel.
Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
Part of the answer is that the Post Office had (has?) special legal status in that it can prosecute cases by itself - no need to present a convincing case to the CPS like the police do. Many people were scared into pleading guilty just to avoid the upfront legal costs and the ruinous fines if contesting and found guilty (“the computer is always right”). Often the PO knew that they didn’t have much of a case but just…
This is a myth as far as I’ve been able to determine. The prosecutions were ordinary private prosecutions. The Post Office didn’t need any kind of special legal status in order to prosecute.
Well, hey, far be it for me to tell you that you’re wrong, but the BBC says that you’re wrong as do numerous other sources.
> The Post Office itself took many cases to court, prosecuting 700 people between 1999 and 2015. Another 283 cases were brought by other bodies, including the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).