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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#411

Post by dimal »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Interesting how supposed fraud from lower class people is a high priority that must be punished, but fraud from upper class people is almost always protected by the corporate veil.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#412

Post by I_dream_of_Geni »

jordanb wrote: post #250
ionwake wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

I don't mean to let the leadership off the hook. What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. There were two phases though: the initial rollout, and sometime later the coverup. If they had asked very reasonable questions about the software during the rollout there would have been no need for a coverup. No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post…

>What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands.This, so much this. Not ONLY that but they kept DOUBLING DOWN for YEARS.

I SO SO wish they would be held accountable for the pain, suffering, Chapter 11's, AND the suicides.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#413

Post by sm00thbr41n »

klik99 wrote: post #395
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force. Growing up half in…

[flagged]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#414

Post by Anthony-G »

ionwake wrote: post #392
horizion2025 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

You're probably right—I just wanted to share a few thoughts and would welcome any corrections or clarification. If I were in leadership, I'd assume there are edge cases I'm missing and take responsibility accordingly. Id just assume that is my job, as the leader, that is why I am paid, to make important decisions and stop the company from making big mistakes. This isn’t a critique of your view—just an observation: th…

Well, resigning to play sudoku is certainly preferable to seppuku. :)

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#415

Post by Hercuros »

dogleash wrote: post #113
xbryanx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please don't say they died by suicide I encourage you to read the current thinking on this evolving language, which offers some explanation as to why we're moving away from damaging language like "committing" suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_terminology#%22Committ... https://www.iasp.info/languageguidelines/

edit: lol wut? The more I think about this the less it makes sense. The stigma of suicide is from the societal attitude that it's wrong and you should never do it. Using a verb isn't the bit that tells everyone it is wrong. If you want to remove the stigma take away all the signs for 998 and perfunctory statements that help is available, and replace them all with "do it. no balls, do it." Isn't the stigma desired any…

> Isn't the stigma desired anyway? It keeps people from going through with it. That's why society deliberately creates and actively cultivates the stigma.

That’s a very optimistic take on how “rational” society tends to be. The thought that “if things are in a certain way in society, then it must make sense (from a moral or societal point of view) for them to be that way.”

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#416

Post by Forgeties79 »

sm00thbr41n wrote: post #413
klik99 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force. Growing up half in…

[flagged]

>libs think

Please don’t bring that nonsense here

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#417

Post by game_the0ry »

monksy wrote: post #384

Don't forget her name: Paula Vennells (Royal Mail CEO). She went on record to state there was no issue despite reports. I'm sure we're see justice for her actions. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells Remember her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPYo_gq329w

Wow, that video was hard to watch.

She needs to go to jail yesterday.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#418

Post by [deleted] »

louthy wrote: post #110
Joeboy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Deep state" is, or at least to be, a perfectly respectable political term for bodies that retain power across changing governments.

Or in other words: the state. No ‘deep’ needed unless you’re trying to be emotive. Fujitsu is not part of the state and although the Post Office is owned by the state, it’s a stand-alone company. > “Perfectly respectable” Maybe in some fringe circles, but this term is certainly attached to a huge amount extreme propaganda and conspiracy that attempts to undermine western democracy and institutions.

[deleted]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#419

Post by [deleted] »

klik99 wrote: post #398
sarreph wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.

As a cultural mutt between US and UK, I think UK is "class-aware" and US is more obsessed with the idea that if we all wear jeans then class isn't a thing. I see the same class contempt in US as the UK, and not recognizing it for what it is keeps people divided.

[deleted]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#420

Post by IshKebab »

arranf wrote: post #401
IshKebab wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but in the UK there actually are lots of people claiming benefits that probably shouldn't be. Especially Personal Independent Payments. It's enough of an issue that even Labour (left wing) is having to deal with it. Though as usual Starmer has chickened out (I think this is like the third thing that was obviously a good move that he's backed down on after dumb backlash).

Can you provide sources for your claim?

If you're looking for hard numbers on how many people shouldn't be getting them then you won't find it. Only the government has access to the details of individual claims.

However you can infer a lot from a) the insane rise in claims, especially mental health related:

https://obr.uk/docs/box-chart-3-f.png

Has the mental health of the nation got twice as bad in 2 years? Obviously not.

And b) whenever the BBC does touchy feely profiles of people there are always some weird red flags:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2gpl4528go

£400/month help with her bills because she struggles with time management? I'm sympathetic to her problems but that is a shit ton of money!

Even some of the people receiving it agree:

> "I was shocked by the ease with which it was granted. I was expecting to be interviewed, rightly so, but it was awarded without interview and he received backdated pay for the maximum amount." > > She was also surprised that her husband got mobility allowance for not having a car, even though she had a car and could drive him around.

(This reminds me of WFA where plenty of people receiving that also thought it was ridiculous.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn0ry09d50wo

> Paul Harris, from Barnard Castle, gets £72.65 a week in PIP payments to help with extra costs associated with his anxiety and depression - such as for specialist therapy apps and counselling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4llx4kvv8o

> Nick Howard, 51, from Cambridge, is neurodivergent and has been claiming Pip for five years. > > "Without Pip I would not be able to work as it pays for my transport to and from my workplace. > > "I'm currently buying an electric bike on credit, others I have had have been stolen or vandalised," he added.

Great... but I don't think paying PIP for 5 years is a good way to buy someone a bike.

Obviously not all cases are like this, but clearly something has gone wrong. And this isn't a partisan issue. Both parties agree that it has to change. The Tories just ignored the problem and Labour gave up after predictable "N people will die!" press.

And to be clear I'm not anti-poor or anything like that. I also thing WFA is ridiculous and that mostly goes to the rich. Child benefit also goes to lots of people (myself included) who totally don't need it. They all need reform, but look what happens when the government tries...

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