Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#471

Post by xanderlewis » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 9:19 PM UTC

trw55 wrote: post #315

globalnode wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a depressing outlook. I feel the lower levels of uni have been co-opted as you say, but once you're passed the undergrad level I think it would become more about interest in the subject and less about a job, don't you think? (Sadly I may be wrong)

This is interesting. How do you support yourself if it’s not about the money? Are you in the US? If you are have you noticed you will be paying $10 for a dozen of eggs? In what world does getting a PhD for curiosity make sense in 2025? It’s not even about money, it’s about literal survival. The people here in this thread talking about getting a PhD to satisfy an interest in a subject must have never gone to bed for d…

> The people here in this thread talking about getting a PhD to satisfy an interest in a subject

I'm sorry, but you seem to be unaware that in many subjects this is the sole reason anyone does a PhD.

> How do you support yourself if it’s not about the money?

Funding, which is readily available.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#472

Post by xanderlewis » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 9:24 PM UTC

palmotea wrote: post #180

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot. And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and fo…

> IMHO, long and difficult educational programs should be designed to guarantee a high chance of a reasonable stable and comfortable outcome.

You've hit the nail on the head. Education is now regarded transactionally. A PhD simply isn't about that; if you ever thought so, you've been lied to.

I'm a PhD student and I'm certainly not being 'taken advantage of' or anything of the sort. Please broaden your perspective and stop basing your entire view of a topic on a few sob stories from people who either couldn't hack it or made terrible, self-sabotaging decisions and now regret it.

There's a huge crowd out there for whom this was not their experience, and hence have no reason to moan about it online.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#473

Post by xanderlewis » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 9:32 PM UTC

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

Conclusion: sorry, but you all seem to be a gang of miserable, jaded, nihilistic, incurious, what's-in-it-for-me bastards. I hope aspiring PhD students don't take any of this nonsense too seriously.

I don't think I read a single first-hand account in this whole thread; just a lot of whining, hearsay, entirely made up bollocks, and a hell of a lot of chips on shoulders.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#474

Post by xanderlewis » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 9:36 PM UTC

Chance-Device wrote: post #334

darth_avocado wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money centric place. It’s not HN. It’s the fact that doing PHD is only a reasonable choice if you either want to get into academia long term or you come from wealth. (Historically science and research was a rich people thing, and only became accessible once student loans were more accessible) I genuinely considered doing PhD after my Masters degree.…

Strongly agreed. The reality of doing a PhD is that you serve the interests of your advisor while living like a pauper. Hardly surprising people are finally realising that it’s usually not worth it. Just part of the needless proliferation of education.

Based on what?

Do you have PhD? Have you any insight at all into what it might be like, or is this all just based on recycled tropes?

> needless proliferation of education.

Almost sounds Trumpian, except the word 'proliferation' is probably several syllables too long.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#475

Post by xanderlewis » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 9:39 PM UTC

NeutralCrane wrote: post #195

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

Cost of living and income inequality are soaring. Huge swaths of the population are living in crippling debt because they believed that it was worth it to spend tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to go to school and learn about what interested them, only to find out it didn’t lead anywhere and they have hamstrung themselves financially for the rest of their lives. It shouldn’t be surprising that people ar…

> it didn’t lead anywhere

It didn't lead to a job, you mean? There's a lot out there to be gained from education other than getting a job afterwards.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#476

Post by Gollapalli » Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 10:41 PM UTC

xanderlewis wrote: post #464

Gollapalli wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to do exactly this, and was told many many times to rethink it.

And you listened? Stop listening.

They made good points and I made a call. I still think I made the right one.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#477

Post by fastball » Sun, Feb 16, 2025, 5:56 AM UTC

xanderlewis wrote: post #468

fastball wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to pursue a PhD to do research, which I think underlies some of the pushback. If you don't care about the credentials or being an career academic, a doctoral program can add a lot of friction for little benefit if the only motivator is passion for the subject.

> You don't need to pursue a PhD to do research ...in some subjects (particularly those that are popular here on HN). Not in general. Be careful with such sweeping statements.

What is one subject you need to be doing a PhD in order to research the subject?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#478

Post by xanderlewis » Sun, Feb 16, 2025, 1:09 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #477

xanderlewis wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need to pursue a PhD to do research ...in some subjects (particularly those that are popular here on HN). Not in general. Be careful with such sweeping statements.

What is one subject you need to be doing a PhD in order to research the subject?

Pure mathematics. There's virtually no one who does (genuinely important) research who doesn't have a PhD. And those who do manage to tend to contribute to relatively more accessible fields like combinatorics or things that can be filed under 'recreational mathematics'.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#479

Post by xanderlewis » Sun, Feb 16, 2025, 1:10 PM UTC

Gollapalli wrote: post #476

xanderlewis wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you listened? Stop listening.

They made good points and I made a call. I still think I made the right one.

You can never really know. I'd rather take a chance and know I got it wrong than never take the chance and never know I got it right.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#480

Post by FrustratedMonky » Sun, Feb 16, 2025, 3:59 PM UTC

xanderlewis wrote: post #470

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research" Dude, you got-a eat.

Yes. That's why funding exists.

The parent was making the argument that the 'drive to find truth', or 'knowledge' should out way petty material concerns. Implying that paying PhD's less is a-ok because they work for a higher purpose.