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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#471

Post by bcrosby95 »

bunderbunder wrote: post #424
IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

The awesome thing about modern programming culture is that rework due to the initial thing you shipped being rushed and shoddy actually looks really good on Tableau. Because you can assign more story points to fixing all the mistakes you made during the last 1-2 days of every sprint.

Bugs and unintentional design deficiencies get zero story points at my job. It's actually something I fought for because it's faux-progress - it's work that's actually a part of the original (likely underestimated) story someone already earned points for.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#472

Post by dmatech »

JohnFen wrote: post #343
danaris wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cube farms aren't really much better for programming work than true open-plan offices. The article is about the split between "office with door" and "not that", not specifically open-plan offices, so talking about cube farms is absolutely valid.

I think cube farms are substantially better than open office plans. I simply cannot function in an open office layout, but I can in a cube farm, albeit at the cost of productivity and the level of thinking I can accomplish.

Open plans have visual and auditory distractions. Cubicles with decent walls at least eliminate the visual distractions. On the other hand, glass-walled offices might have decent soundproofing but have the distraction of people constantly walking by.

There's also the question of form vs. function. A lot of people in leadership care a great deal about the workspace looking "modern" and care less about it being effective for the people working in it.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#473

Post by diyftw »

ath3nd wrote: post #460
falcor84 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing Just for fun, let me try to one-up that: working outside, in a scorching desert, hung upside down, just barely reaching your laptop on the sand, with scorpions crawling over the keyboard. But thinking about it, even in that situation, I guess I would still prefer not to have to deal with people having unrelated conversations around me.

At least the scorpions don't have the unreasonable expectation for you to not freak out when they interrupt you.

It is also acceptable to shoo away the scorpions. Much less acceptable with Bonnie from HR.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#474

Post by giancarlostoro »

ike2792 wrote: post #365
IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

As a former programmer and now EM, I agree with this. Open offices definitely felt a lot more productive since everyone was always frantically working and communicating. I think people actually have gotten more done since WFH started, though.

The sweet spot is don't force people to work a certain way. I was in an open office place before 2020, was remote friendly, we mostly would come in except when we needed personal time or whatever, but if I wanted to focus, I'd pop in headphones and crank out code, as would anyone else. If I wanted to peer program I could, and if anyone wanted a quick laugh, we'd just talk for about five minutes, because sitting staring at code non-stop in an office environment can be draining too. I prefer WFH, and I can peer program with devs by calling them on Teams and screen sharing, but if I have to be in an office, it wont make much different to me, just the risk / wasted time from the commute.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#475

Post by ath3nd »

diyftw wrote: post #473
ath3nd wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the scorpions don't have the unreasonable expectation for you to not freak out when they interrupt you.

It is also acceptable to shoo away the scorpions. Much less acceptable with Bonnie from HR.

Yes, Bonnie from HR gives me the shudders. The enthusiasm!

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#476

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

hibernator149 wrote: post #399
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't. Same way I could never get in a long distance relationship with someone. I need to be in the same room as them and look them in the eye when I'm explaining something to them. I actually like the 2-5 minutes of chit chat in the common kitchen every morning, talking about where my colleague went skiing that weekend. An…

Honest question because I'm curious. What is your definition of an introvert and how do you know you are one?

I don't care to be in the center of attention I guess and I'm very comfortable with silence.

When I socialize with friends typically 1h is enough.

I don't "collect" friends. I only get close to people when it makes sense. I am not socially inept however, just selective

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#477

Post by RandomLensman »

ath3nd wrote: post #465
RandomLensman wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have pretty noisy and messy environments where technically challenging programming and other taxing work happens successfully (e.g., some trading floor). How much do think the whole issue is self selection into preferred work environments?

There is a reason the stereotypical image of these guys is them chainsmoking, doing copious amount of drugs (to take the edge off), and throwing themselves out of high places. Work happening "successfully" and people making money doesn't mean it's the most efficient or healthy way of working. I am happy to throw a % or two of productivity in the short term if my workers don't burn out in the long term. Luckily, resea…

That stereotypical image is wrong. Also, there is real complex stuff created there. Some people like such environments and wouldn't like sitting in quiet places - being where stuff happens has its benefits, too.

How is success defined in those studies? Honestly curious.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#478

Post by [deleted] »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #402
politician wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inside Facebooks' offices in Seattle circa 2019: "Overcrowded pig sty" is an accurate description. The smell was overpowering. Two pairs of bathrooms for an entire floor of developers packed shoulder to shoulder in an open plan hellscape.

I actually really loved the Dexter building. Yes it was all that, but I’m an extrovert and some part of my work day needs have been unmet for 4 years now.

[deleted]

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#479

Post by mattgreenrocks »

IKantRead wrote: post #316
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

Yeah, this definitely gets at something. There's a sizable (or just noisy?) contingent of devs who prioritize activity above actual quality because quality is hard and not immediately measureable (supposedly). And it feels designed to be overtly anti-intellectual, as if the act of engineering is a mostly social act punctuated by the annoying demands made by the compiler, the runtime, and customers.

I suspect it's championed at some places because you're "leveling everyone up."

Follow the incentives.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#480

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

JohnFen wrote: post #376
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't. Same way I could never get in a long distance relationship with someone. I need to be in the same room as them and look them in the eye when I'm explaining something to them. I actually like the 2-5 minutes of chit chat in the common kitchen every morning, talking about where my colleague went skiing that weekend. An…

> But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't. That's entirely fair. You work best in a particular sort of arrangement, just as others work best in other sorts of arrangements. Nobody is wrong here.

For sure, I was just describing it the way I frame it for myself. I'm not gonna judge people who prefer to do nothing but remote
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