Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#471

Post by fluoridation » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:02 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #333

eschneider wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's boggles the mind that a car company would spend millions on styling and then do something like that to completely cheapen the experience. Of course, software companies do that sort of thing all the time. Just...ugh.

That's the entire point. They design a "luxury" car to be sold at a luxury price, with high margins. But by doing so, they go above budget for many potential customers. So they make a cheaper version, with lower margins, but they deliberately cheapen the experience so that those who can afford the "luxury" version don't buy the "cheap" version instead.

If you want to sell a cheaper version then actually make that cheaper version. Don't sell the exact same version with the switch locked in the off position by a logic puzzle and then sell the solution for an exorbitant price. Hell, make a single version and physically break the feature at the factory. Remove a critical component. Anything but this bullshit.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#472

Post by ModernMech » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

coolspot wrote: post #248

ddalex wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could anonymize your location on Tesla's servers I already anonymise my location on Tesla's servers by simply not owning a Tesla

Your car is filmed and recognized by other teslas.

I drive a firetruck, so I'm invisible to Teslas.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#473

Post by bonestamp2 » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #274

mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

The only hack on cable style TV I remember is you could buy modified satellite authentication cards for DirectTV for a time - usually on eBay or similar sites - and they worked. No idea how long, I had an uncle that had one though, got all the premium channels etc. I doubt any of this works anymore though

I remember being out for a beer run with a friend during these days. On the way there he pulls into a parking lot and stops in front of a nail salon. He said, "Come on" and I followed him into the nail salon. There were about 10 women in there, not a guy in sight... he goes up to the desk and pushes a button that looks like a doorbell.

One of the ladies doing the nails says, "He no work here no more, check dry cleaner across the street." We get back in the car and I'm like, "What was that all about?". "My DirecTV card got disabled and that's where I get it reprogrammed".

We go across the street to the Dry Cleaners. There are three ladies in the lobby watching TV, and a guy behind the counter. He asks the man, "Is Ken here?" The man says, "I'll check" as he walks into the back. Now, the man was coming from the back when we came in, so I assume he already knows if Ken is there or not, but Ken probably only comes out if he recognizes my friend.

Sure enough, Ken comes right out all smiles and they have a quick chat. My friend hands over his card and Ken says, "we had to get new equipment, it's now $100, ATM next door".

Ken disappears for about 10 minutes and comes back. My friend gives him cash and away we went. About 4 months later, he had to get it reprogrammed again.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#474

Post by beiller » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:06 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #320

beiller wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're getting at, but the back seat example here has all the same issues I pointed out above. They actually would weigh even more than seat heaters. I only gave some examples above of why it's bad but there are many more off the top. Either way if I truly think I am right, then BMW, etc should just go ahead with this plan. It should be a money loser for them in the long run. But on second thought why b…

I agree with you 100%. Sometimes on HN we assume when someone replies to us they're disagreeing!

Haha yeah I wasn't quite sure from the response, so I just expanded on what I was saying before. I wonder if there is any examples of it being a good thing in any way shape or form.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#475

Post by kelnos » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #241

LocalH wrote: post #228

Rent-seeking is the true American way, it seems. Good on the hackers. Good on everyone who helps to liberate us from the overreach of big business.

Is it rent seeking/overreach? I make a video game and charge $50 for it. Later I make a DLC and charge $25 for it. Is your claim that if I keep them as separate purchasable downloads, I'm not rent seeking? But if instead combine the game and dlc into a single executable (to simplify build and distribution) and put the dlc behind a software lock, somehow that is now rent seeking/overreach and I deserve to have hackers…

I don't think you'd "deserve" to have hackers unlock it, but I also think that you should have no legal right to prevent people from unlocking it without your permission, and I don't think it's unethical or immoral for anyone to do so. If you sell something to someone, and put it in their hands, they should have the right to do whatever they want with it.

Presumably you've made the choice to bundle the base game and the DLC together like that in order to reduce your costs somehow, and I'm not responsible for your business model or logistical issues. If you're worried about people unlocking the DLC for free, don't put it in their hands without charging them for it.

Either way, I think it's entirely reasonable to classify the concept of "charging extra at a later date for something you've already given the customer" as rent-seeking or overreach. Even more so if, instead of a one-time charge, you choose to charge a subscription for something that does not require any ongoing costs for you to provide.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#476

Post by frankus » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

rkagerer wrote: post #300

Seeing this gives me the same warm, fuzzy feeling I had when I jailbroke my first iPhone to gain features that were impossible otherwise. I wonder if Tesla will start using physical one-shot fuse bits buried deep in hard-to-access components (eg. hardwire a heater control relay open in the final programming step at the factory) to make these type of attacks more difficult. Of course that would preclude up-selling the…

I think it's all about the possibility to later upsell. I don't think the economics work out where it's cheaper to install something like a seat heater in every car and permanently disable for price discrimination purposes (the way you might for e.g. a CPU).

My brain can kind of rationalize this as "it makes the up-front price lower, and you can add features to your car without even visiting a dealer", but my heart definitely recoils at the idea of paying for something like that already in my possession.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#477

Post by awad » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

mgiampapa wrote: post #196

vessenes wrote: post #47

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

Mod chips for consoles and mod chips for cars don't seem too dissimilar

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#478

Post by bumby » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

avrionov wrote: post #218

bumby wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologize for my ignorance, but isn't it up to Tesla to define what hardware they want to integrate? Or is there no design alternative?

What they meant is that it is not possible to fix it without replacing the hardware.

I see. But replacing the hardware would still be very much in the purview of "Tesla's problem" if you think they are a car manufacturer.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#479

Post by sleepybrett » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

mgiampapa wrote: post #196

vessenes wrote: post #47

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

I had a friend that made a tidy sum in college by selling replacement chips for high end cars that overrode some governors built into the firmware.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#480

Post by TheLoafOfBread » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

Zetice wrote: post #111

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like problem of a manufacturer not problem of a user.

The price of the product being higher isn't a problem for the user?

Correct. That's a problem of a manufacturer for not having a competing product.