Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#471

Post by shrimp_emoji » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #443

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no…

>I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means.

Having no psychological/developmental conditionals recognized by the DSM

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#472

Post by onion2k » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

listless wrote: post #446

tedivm wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind. I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know…

Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

I think I'd agree with you unless something crazy happened, like a global pandemic that completely shifted the way companies think and made them massively more likely to recruit remote workers.

If that happened then you'd have to be daft to think it wouldn't change anything.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#473

Post by engineeringwoke » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #456

engineeringwoke wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can. All the answers are in your childhood, but you may discover things that you won't be able to forget

... No. Many people suffer from partial or full paralysis of facial muscles, neurological conditions that limit expression, and numerous other conditions that will forever and permanently limit their ability to engage in expressive body language.

but these are very rare things. The person you originally responded to did not mean anything against anyone who has these things. I've met many people in my life that were convinced they were unable to do things that they were quite capable of. Stephen Hawking was still quite expressive despite his limitations, although they did come later in life

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#474

Post by zarkov99 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

Of all the arguments against RTO the ones the signatories chose were racism, agism and sexism. Because everything, absolutely everything one does not like must somehow be linked back to white maleness. God, this stuff parodies itself.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#475

Post by kbelder » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:37 PM UTC

onesafari wrote: post #280

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

This is a rift between digital only natives and digital hybrids. The hybrids know the tradeoffs of both. Digital only don't have the lived experience to know what they're missing.

I think for completeness, you should have three categories, and include the offline-onlys. They, similarly, don't understand all that they're missing.

(Btw, this took me on a tangent trying to figure out the proper way to pluralize 'only'.)

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#476

Post by lolsal » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #366

lolsal wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not for me, no. I'm neurodiverse, and that shit is just lost on me. I hear you and understand. Lots of people are neuro-normative though, and that stuff is valuable. Let's not assert that remote-only is the Best® though, because for a lot of folks, there is a loss of fidelity in communication going fully remote only. > You might as well complain that you are missing out on being able to tell racist jokes with your…

>When I go to lunch and talk to my colleague about her favorite places to snorkel Yet you take it for granted that she will go to lunch with you, and that she will engage in neurotypical "pleasantries". I'll bet that anyone who doesn't want to go to lunch with you, you will take this as a negative at review time. "They just aren't trustworthy" or "He isn't a team player", despite them being the highest performing per…

> Yet you take it for granted that she will go to lunch with you, and that she will engage in neurotypical "pleasantries".

I suppose I do! I'm not coercing anyone to go to lunch with me, so I'm not really sure what your point is here.

> I'll bet that anyone who doesn't want to go to lunch with you, you will take this as a negative at review time. "They just aren't trustworthy" or "He isn't a team player", despite them being the highest performing person on the team.

Not at all. I'm a results-driven professional and to suggest otherwise is offensive, to be honest.

> I very rarely make it about me, because my goals are to solve interesting problems that make money by benefitting our customers. In this conversation, the problem is "how to maximize productivity at Apple given a diverse workforce". You are the one that wants to make it "about someone". You are providing an excellent example of neurotypical privilege.

I'm talking about: socializing with my colleagues is one of the many benefits that is lost when we transition to full remote only work. The disabilities, preferences, or whatever other flavor-of-the-moment persecutions you care about is irrelevant to me. I'm going to invite people I enjoy spending time with to lunch and I don't consider the persons gender, sexuality, mental health, or whatever else you are talking about when I invite them to spend their lunch with me. I expect them to be honest and come under their own free will. I can't control anything beyond that.

If you want to spend your lunch with me, great! Let's go chat and learn about each other. If for some reason you find this offensive, or privileged, then I think we would not enjoy lunch together and that's good to learn, too! I wouldn't want to invite you to lunch the next time.

Good luck out there.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#477

Post by dleslie » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

engineeringwoke wrote: post #473

dleslie wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... No. Many people suffer from partial or full paralysis of facial muscles, neurological conditions that limit expression, and numerous other conditions that will forever and permanently limit their ability to engage in expressive body language.

but these are very rare things. The person you originally responded to did not mean anything against anyone who has these things. I've met many people in my life that were convinced they were unable to do things that they were quite capable of. Stephen Hawking was still quite expressive despite his limitations, although they did come later in life

They ignored that class of individual in their response; individuals who exist and who I've personally worked with and do continue to work with.

> Stephen Hawking was still quite expressive despite his limitations, although they did come later in life

He's a fantastic example of why you don't need to rely on body language to communicate emotion and feeling.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#478

Post by stuff4ben » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #450

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

Quoted post unavailable.

You know the answer to this is "ok boomer" right?

But seriously you hit upon a lot of topics us older folks seem to get and younger folks don't and also vice versa. It's also well within their rights to demand remote work and not have to go into the office at all. Perhaps younger minds are better at collaboration than older minds? And even as an older guy who had a "butts in seats" policy when I managed folks, I don't buy the argument that working remotely has serious tradeoffs. If they were so bad, open source software would never have taken off. You don't have to be in the office to collaborate effectively. Maybe if your personality demands it, but a lot of us introverts (or non-neuro-normative if you will) kinda like not being around people who talk all the time.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#479

Post by EricE » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

odessacubbage wrote: post #419

EricE wrote: post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

i can only speak for myself, but work from home has genuinely been life changing as an autistic person. i also think you are right that choosing to work remotely comes at the risk of limiting opportunities, but the difference in quality of life is significant enough that i am willing to take that risk [it's not like those of us with terrible interpersonal skills were going to be making many life-changing connections…

That is awesome! Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having the choice. What I think is crazy is people want to act like there aren't trade off's. You clearly are aware of them and for you they still overwhelmingly work in your favor - that's win-win.

If there is one positive thing from the pandemic, it did force companies that would have never entertained remote work to at least do it - and many will probably keep at least some remote work as part of their employment package. However I don't see it staying at, of all companies, Apple. Their corporate culture, desire for information control/secrecy - at this point if you are an employee of Apple and surprised they want everyone back in the office - well, that's more your problem than theirs.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#480

Post by smeej » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #450

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

Quoted post unavailable.

> ...never had to do anything hard in their life.

What I wouldn't give to see you try just to survive a day with my body and my brain.

The base level struggle of someone living in a world designed for people with completely different brains than ours would make whatever trophies you think you earned in actual competitive Little League or whatever look exactly like the worthless little ego strokes you think participation trophies are.

But we can compete with you, now that we can work remotely. If you can't compete remotely, that's because you've been relying on privileges you didn't even realize you had for your success, not because there's something wrong with remote work.

If you can't succeed now that we're on the field, you don't deserve any more trophies.