EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#471

Post by worik » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #371

worik wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German army at the gates of Moscow, Stalingrad/Volgagrad, and Lenningrad/St Petersburg found it was no lie. Do not rely on state propaganda, look at the results

German army mostly found that Union had more soldiers than they had bullets, and that wehrmacht got to Moscow on the fumes. The "massive industrial advantage" was nothing not to be expected from the most resource rich country on the planet. Yet, the country was, by all accounts, from both most staunch communist party sources, and contemporary anticommunists, completely incapable of running during the crisis, and "all…

Very odd.

How is making more tanks, guns, and aeroplanes done on desperation and not industrial might?

I think ideology has gotten in the way of reason!

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#472

Post by thu2111 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #291

thu2111 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean and I have reasonable working hours and holiday protected by law. You seem to suggest that regulation is always bad, I think a lot of people would disagree.

The latter two are perhaps good for employees but are definitely a problem for startup founders who need everyone to give 110% of the company is to survive at all.

As for chlorinated chicken, the EU likes to come up with bogus safety issues to protect French farmers, this is no news. It also has banned GM food, although the health problems Americans have aren't related to chlorinated chicken nor GM foods. The air one has been tackled by others already.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#473

Post by worik » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #455

ladyanita22 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about what should have been done, but at how efficient the USSR was. It. was. not at all.

I mean, how do you quantify that? I’d love to see the study measuring USSR efficiency.

They were incredibly efficient at big industry

But never could make consumer goods. When the economy had to pivot to a consumer lead one, they found that all the economists with different ideas had been shot....

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#474

Post by bpye » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #414

usr1106 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech salaries in the US are not sustainable. We don't have enough planets to run economies and waste natural resources at that velocity. Well, probably the same is true for the "pitiful" salaries in the EU. Just to a lesser degree.

Yet tech salaries in Vancouver combined with real estate values make it so that most tech jobs are barely living wage, at least when my partner and I tried hard to make it work some years ago. Even with universal health care (which wasn't quite what they have) it couldn't possibly make up the difference for someone with college debt. I'd argue that if you got a CS degree from an American college you're probably just…

I don't think Vancouver is as bad as you make it out to be. No, you will not make the same money here as in Seattle, it's often something like a 1/3rd pay cut. That is not a bad income however, it is easily enough to rent and whilst real estate in Vancouver proper may be expensive there is reliable transit and property in the other cities such as Burnaby, Richmond, Coquitlam etc is significantly less expensive.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean with your point about healthcare. MSP premiums were eliminated last year [0], there is now no charge to access medical care. Prescriptions, dental and eye care are all still chargeable, though prescriptions at least are essentially capped through BC Fair Pharmacare [1].

Compared to the US, Canada is much easier for immigration as a tech worker. One can get PR (equivalent of a green card) before landing if they have a sufficient points score, in BC that's fairly easy through the tech PNP [2] and a willing employer.

Additionally Vancouver consistently ranks among the top 10 most liveable cities [3].

[0] - https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/health-drug-covera...

[1] - https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/health-drug-covera...

[2] - https://www.welcomebc.ca/Immigrate-to-B-C/B-C-Provincial-Nom...

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Ranking

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#475

Post by TMWNN » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 12:03 AM UTC

stiray wrote: post #465

TMWNN wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of all the people that I know that went working outside of their country, they were mostly going to EU companies (or USA companies in Europe), sometimes to the Asia. None left for USA. On the other side I know a CTO that left USA for Europe and bought a small property in France where he lives with whole family. Now let me give you actual statistics. In a survey of scientists from 16 countries ( http://spectrum.ieee.…

Sure, I have never argued with that. Meanwhile (since 2012) Trump happened, race unrest's, police brutality, corona handling fiasco, Google/FB/Amazon public image is going down, USA public depth has roughly doubled [1] and general perception of USA has changed (to the worse[2]), China is hiring, student depth is going trough the roof (and immigrants want to have children someday), no one believes in "war on terror" a…

>This graph is outdated, did you find some that is up to date?

I provided statistics in response to your anecdotes. The onus is on you, not me, to prove that a) your anecdotes are actually representative of broader trends, and b) my statistics are, in fact, outdated.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#476

Post by usr1106 » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 12:15 AM UTC

wott wrote: post #460

usr1106 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. I can understand your concerns. But if you look at mid-range airplanes the European monster Airbus did respectably catch up with incumbent Boeing. In with the Jumbos they clearly surpassed it engineering-wise but failed in their commercial predi…

Airbus was not related to EU (or EEC). It was basically a France-Germany bipartite cooperation, with tiny bits of Spain and Netherlands, and UK being in/out. UK didn't belong to EEC when they were supposed to take part in the beginning of the project. Spain didn't join EEC until 20 years later. Netherlands were in by accident, in a way.

While Airbus is older than the current EU it was and is a multi-national cooperation in the same spirit, where political and national interests need to be taken into account, even if it reduces economic efficiency. They even needed the Beluga https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Beluga because they could not concentrate manufacturing of big parts in a single country.

Boeing should have a clear advantage because they have no such political interference. But it doesn't seem to have prevented Airbus from being a serious competitor. Whether the political interference is older than the EU or from the EU of today should not make a significant difference here.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#477

Post by baybal2 » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

worik wrote: post #470

hardlianotion wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to 40% of the tanks that fought on the Russian side in these battles were supplied by the British. UK provided a huge amount of war material to the USSR that helped keep it in the war.

I do not think that is true. Maybe 40% of the types of tank. Some facts from Wikipedia: At the opening of operation Barbarosa the Red Army had four to one advantage over the Nazis in tank numbers. By 1941 lend lease tanks were 6.5% of Soviet tanks, about a quarter of medium and heavy tanks. Where do you get "up to 40%" from? Even if true my point still stands. According t Alex Nove in 1900 there was not a metal lathe…

> According t Alex Nove in 1900 there was not a metal lathe in all of Russia. They could de clinker locomotives, but not make a gear box. By 1941 they were out stripping the Germans.

Again, you are regurgitating a myth.

I would not doubt the 4 to 1 outgunning of USSR vs. Germany. Indeed Union's army was incomparably materially superior due to decades long total dedication to military buildup, but that does not preclude the fact the industry was still barely going, and that this material advantage melted like butter within first months of war.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#478

Post by CryptoPunk » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

rusk wrote: post #456

CryptoPunk wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a libhurdurian and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. A public goods argument can be made for strategic investments. I also don't think it's been conclusively shown that there have been "repeated successes with this style of investment". Demonstrating that would require knowing what the opportunity cost of the spending for these projects was, which is impossible. Claiming it's an open-and-shut case that…

I’m not claiming it’s open and shut. Every time something like this comes around you have all these guys giving out. I don’t say free market doesn’t work in all cases but just that it doesn’t work in all cases. Libertarianism is a dead end. Also BSD Unix.

Your earlier statement, that "lassaiz affaire is just as prone to degeneration" is just as ideological as anything you responded to. Neither of you have proven your case. It's entirely possible that you are right, and there's a factual basis for your assertion. It's also entirely possible that the party you are in opposition to is right, and there's a factual basis for theirs.

Neither point has been supported in this discussion with anything beyond rhetoric.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#479

Post by worik » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 3:50 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #477

worik wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think that is true. Maybe 40% of the types of tank. Some facts from Wikipedia: At the opening of operation Barbarosa the Red Army had four to one advantage over the Nazis in tank numbers. By 1941 lend lease tanks were 6.5% of Soviet tanks, about a quarter of medium and heavy tanks. Where do you get "up to 40%" from? Even if true my point still stands. According t Alex Nove in 1900 there was not a metal lathe…

> According t Alex Nove in 1900 there was not a metal lathe in all of Russia. They could de clinker locomotives, but not make a gear box. By 1941 they were out stripping the Germans. Again, you are regurgitating a myth. I would not doubt the 4 to 1 outgunning of USSR vs. Germany. Indeed Union's army was incomparably materially superior due to decades long total dedication to military buildup, but that does not preclu…

How about some evidence?

"probably" does not cut it.

The lie is the Soviets were bad economic managers. They pulled off the most incredible feat in industrialising their economy in less than fifty years, more liek twenty five useful years.

The millions of starved peasants, slaughtered "class enemies", exiled dissidents.... They were there too. Not pretty, not moral, not desirable, but incredible achievement nonetheless.

I am not sure, how in the context of such a system "efficiency" can be measured. But in raw capacity there has never been anything like it until the Chinese in the nineties and naughties with their own millions of starved peasants, slaughtered "class enemies", exiled dissidents....

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#480

Post by esperent » Sun, Jan 03, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

golfer wrote: post #458

audunw wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think EU is behind in tech? As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the lithography machines used by all state of the art IC nodes is designed in Europe. It’s one of the most complex machines on the planet. Then there’s mega projects like LHC and ITER (international projects, but it’s not pure chance that they’re located in Europe) and Wendelstein 7-X. My pet example is Nordic Semiconductor, which has an…

The market defines behind "ahead/behind" by market value. None of the top 5 market caps in Europe are in tech. They are Nestle, Roche, Total SA, Novartis, and LVMH. They are tiny in comparison to the US tech giants. All the anecdotal evidence you provide is nice, but is not represented in the market. An example you give, Nordic Semiconductor, has a market cap of $3B. Here's a good list of the worlds largest tech comp…

Allowing companies to grow to the size of Facebook/Apple etc. is more and more being clearly demonstrated to be a bad thing.

The last time the relative size of US tech giants to EU companies was brought up here, a commentator replied that EU law is designed to prevent companies growing to this kind of outlandish size. I have no idea if that's true or not, but if so, it seems like a prudent approach even if we miss out on brownie points of getting to claim "ours is biggest". As others have pointed out here, the EU is not behind technologically. All we're behind on is company size, and I'm ok with that.