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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#291

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

thu2111 wrote: post #181
golfer wrote: post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean and I have reasonable working hours and holiday protected by law. You seem to suggest that regulation is always bad, I think a lot of people would disagree.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#292

Post by systemvoltage »

flembat wrote: post #281
golfer wrote: post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

Partly we are all hopelessly impressed by American salesmanship. For example our businesses ignored things like the Acorn Archimedes and bought PCs from IBM instead.

First step would be to build better products and services.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#293

Post by rmrfstar »

lumost wrote: post #238
rmrfstar wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sovereignty" is an important concept that dropped out of American discourse in the 1990s. No self-respecting country relies on foreign cryptography to protect its diplomatic communications. Similarly, no self-respecting country in 2030 will rely entirely on foreign integrated circuits. FPGAs will play an important role for small countries, but large groups like EU can afford to go big.

Sovereignty matters when you can’t trust there won’t be supply disruptions due to war, piracy, or trade intervention. Post ww2 the US had no reason to be concerned with any of the above in the western world, following the collapse of the USSR this mentality was extended globally with the belief that “we’d reached the end of history”. As of 2020 I don’t think any major power considers the risk of trade interventions o…

An alternative explanation is that US policy makers like Larry Summers and Bob Rubin are just incompetent, delusional, and greedy.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#294

Post by ourlordcaffeine »

jamesblonde wrote: post #143

Sweden missing from here is a surprise. We have Ericsson who still design their own chips for telecom devices - one of the few companies left in Europe to do so. And Volvo and Scania might be interested for self-driving cars.

Volvo cars is now Chinese owned. Swedish Volvo only do HGVs.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#295

Post by blibble »

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #291
thu2111 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deep question that is asked nowhere near enough. And when it is asked, my experience has been it's mostly been Americans doing the asking. Here's a story. I was once visiting Silicon Valley for work and getting dinner with a friend who lives there. I'm a Brit who lives in central Europe. On the way over I'd bought a copy of Der Spiegel, which likes to write tabloid-esque articles about the Power Of Tech Firm…

Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean and I have reasonable working hours and holiday protected by law. You seem to suggest that regulation is always bad, I think a lot of people would disagree.

> Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean

well, if you completely ignore that the EU pushed diesel over petrol, to protect its domestic industries

exactly the same as the chicken thing

neither are to protect your health, that's just a secondary effect that the EU uses for PR

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#296

Post by samat »

stelonix wrote: post #239
f6v wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the opposite happened in Russia and other ex-soviet countries. The factories were sold and dismantled under the pretense of “transitioning to market economy”.

Most of the time with countries not directly aligned to the west, the preaching is for us to sell our strategic industries in name of liberalism and "economic openness", usually spreading lies and misinformation about the company's efficiency. When it's the other way around, it's protectionism and good old Keynesian economics: China can't buy that company, their 5g is evil etc. I know this first-hand because it has h…

There is a popular myth that 'there was a mighty USSR and some enemies ruined it'.

The Soviet Union collapsed because of massively broken economy. That's just basic science. They exported oil and imported grain. Russia imported GRAIN for gods sake. Then oil prices collapsed. Next? They did nothing and just ate through the resources until they were no more.

And then 'evil liberals/evil west destroying the great country' happened, when finally USSR had no money to pay for the social obligations and for massive military.

This are the undisputed facts, supported by a vast trove of internal documents from the late USSR and first years of the Russian Federations.

A monograph by Egor Gaidar [1] is an excellent source referencing tons of the original documents.

Sorry for Russian, not sure this is available in English anywhere.

I get that it's easier to think that source of our problems is some evil mastermind and conspiracy. But think of the Occam's razor — this is explained much easier by sheer incompetency and stupidity and no checks and balances to mitigate them.

1. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гибель_империи_(монография)

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#297

Post by eecc »

tasubotadas wrote: post #227
f6v wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the opposite happened in Russia and other ex-soviet countries. The factories were sold and dismantled under the pretense of “transitioning to market economy”.

They were non-competitive businesses producing outdated junk and in majority of cases there was no other way to survive apart of being sold for scrap. Some manufacturers that produced basic sellable goods survived (steel foundries, fertilizer makers)

No. There’s significant evidence that sudden overnight market manipulation (e.g. setting exchange parity to the eastern and western Deutsche Mark destroyed all eastern consumer goods industries, which were bought for symbolic sums and then deliberately shuttered.) it’s obvious that any such fundamentalist and radically liberalist policy would have tore through any economy, but the point was to smother Carthage, and sow salt on its ruins

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#298

Post by petre »

rapsey wrote: post #80
sgift wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you show where Horizon2020 squandered money? Or gave any other reason to bash the EU?

I know of two companies getting money. The first ones entire business model is EU funds. They “make” only the necessary burocratic documentation. They have zero intentions of producing anything. The other is large and dirty af with bribes. If you try to compete with them for EU grants, you are going to get an investigation into your business for misspending EU funds. Because they know the right people.

That's one reason why the European Public Prossecutor's Office was created.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#299

Post by mafribe »

dmix wrote: post #259
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

Man, I wish I too shared such optimism in EU or other massive multi government bureaucratic organizations to pull something off like this in 2021. But sorry I simply don’t. From my experience with gov trying to do tech investment it’s going to go into the pockets of late career overpaid ‘executives’ with ‘industry experience’ and tons of (also overpaid and underqualified) contractors doing the same thing. Not the bri…

As far as I understand, ASML is not the creation of government funding, but instead a spinout of Philip and ASMI, two successful Dutch electronics companies. ASML was successful in a competitive market, dominated by Japanese companies pretty quickly.

In other words, very different model from what the EU is currently trying.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#300

Post by f6v »

tasubotadas wrote: post #227
f6v wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the opposite happened in Russia and other ex-soviet countries. The factories were sold and dismantled under the pretense of “transitioning to market economy”.

They were non-competitive businesses producing outdated junk and in majority of cases there was no other way to survive apart of being sold for scrap. Some manufacturers that produced basic sellable goods survived (steel foundries, fertilizer makers)

That’s exactly the narrative that was used. I guess that’s why Yeltsin was such a good friend to the west and why he’s despised by many Russians.

I mean, sure, many factories were not competitive since they were highly subsidized and faced no competition on internal market. But USSR had an immense R&D potential and engineering education was top-notch.

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