Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#471

Post by cryptonector » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

aw1621107 wrote: post #384

hanging wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

executive orders can decide what the law means You should tell the SCOTUS that. They overturned 55% of Obama executive directives that reached them, and his administration had the most overturned unanimously (yes, even Ginsberg and Sotomayor) of any Presidency. >>Also, the U.S. Constitution's requirement that State governments be (small-r) republican There is no such requirement Dude. This is literally in Article IV:…

> Dude. This is literally in Article IV: > "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, ..." Perhaps it’s my imperfect understanding of English here, but to me this reads more like a guarantee to the states that the federal government itself will take the form of a republican government, not that the states themselves must be republics. It’s like a shopkeeper saying…

The Constitution clearly sets up a Republican Form of Government for the Federal Government. Clearly, the Republican Guarantee clause's only meaning would be to limit future Amendments' scope if it were only to apply to the Federal Government. But look at more of the Article:

| The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; ...

That makes it pretty clear that this is about the States.

The Republican Guarantee is a commitment of the Federal Government to the States about the States. It means that the Federal Government will tolerate no State monarchies.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#472

Post by xienze » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #386

xienze wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

You have to take into account that Europe is much more densely and uniformly populated than the United States, and had outbreaks start earlier than the US. WRT. "United States of Europe", thanks to the EU, you can often consider the Union as a unit in terms of trade; Europe is also more homogenous culturarly than the states. However, when talking about COVID-19, EU has almost zero influence on how the pandemic is han…

> You have to take into account that Europe is much more densely and uniformly populated than the United States, and had outbreaks start earlier than the US.

Now take into account that these countries have supposedly superior healthcare systems, a healthier population, and leaders not named Trump. I’d say that negates those factors.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#473

Post by vkou » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #235

vkou wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials, and that is called a victory for democracy?

> an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials To my knowledge, there was no such legislation. The order was issued by the executive.

The legislature passed a bill that granted this power to the executive in past decades.

Partisan judges felt the need to overturn that bill - despite the legislature retaining the power to override the executive, and to repeal that bill - if they could get 66% of the assembly behind it.

This is the opposite of a democratic process. The democratic process has checks and balances for dealing with a rogue executive - but it requires an overwhelming support of the legislature. Instead, this ended up being decided by unelected career bureaucrats.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#474

Post by asabjorn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #455

claytongulick wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot more to it than that. Dig.

With such vague directions, it's easy to state anything. For example: You are actually wrong and there is ironclad proof out there. Dig.

Suggestion to parent from someone that agree: find some evidence to counter claim or support another story.

Share this evidence and direction to better path, and then each individual will choose if they want to put together the evidence to form their own opinion.

“Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.” 1 John 2:6

“No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.” Buddha

“If he comes to me walking, I come to him running” the Hadith

“Human beings should walk the right path humbly” rig Veda

Show a direction to a path and whom will walk walks. Where each individual will walk is not for us to choose.

As shown on my first parent in this thread you will still risk being downvoted with no argument in the virtual or real sense, but that doesn’t matter as those are at any rate not useful opponents in truth seeking so ignore them.

Don’t argue with anything but a person as you would then throw pearls to swine. The loving father did not join his son in the pig pen after his fall, he waited until the son walked away from the pig pen and welcomed him with open arms.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#475

Post by xienze » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

f2ostie wrote: post #457

xienze wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

Those numbers shouldn't be taken at face value and should certainly not be compared. For example, here in Belgium every death at a nursing home is counted as a Corona casualty. Which increases the death by Corona massively in comparison with a country not doing that. An article that really shows that difference is: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lbsbusinessstrategyreview/2020/...

> For example, here in Belgium every death at a nursing home is counted as a Corona casualty. Which increases the death by Corona massively in comparison with a country not doing that.

New York City recently reclassified 3K+ deaths as “likely” due to Covid, despite none of those people having been tested. And our CDC’s guidelines state that anyone who died WITH Covid is assumed to have died FROM Covid. I would say we’re definitely not being conservative with the reporting here...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#476

Post by leetcrew » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #458

leetcrew wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many (ie, as an absolute number) parents may do a poor job of homeschooling, but I don't think this is enough to condemn the practice overall. although an imperfect measure, american homeschooled students actually have significantly higher average scores on standardized tests than public school students.

If a decent percentage do poorly (15-25%), then it is enough to condemn the practice overall - at least in its current form. There aren't nearly enough controls to eliminate this sort of thing, and I think it is probably more expensive to do so. I also think that - apart from test scores - these kids are less likely to be forced to deal with folks different from themselves and a bit less likely to be introduced to co…

> If a decent percentage do poorly (15-25%), then it is enough to condemn the practice overall - at least in its current form. There aren't nearly enough controls to eliminate this sort of thing, and I think it is probably more expensive to do so. I also think that - apart from test scores - these kids are less likely to be forced to deal with folks different from themselves and a bit less likely to be introduced to concepts their parents disagree with.

as always, the relevant question is "compared to what?". lots of american public school systems are still deeply segregated and produce astonishingly poor outcomes for their students. the part about being exposed to concepts parents disagree with is a good point, but certain homogeneous christian communities have had some success getting divine creation presented at least side-by-side with evolution (see "teach the controversy"). many public schools still give very watered down versions of slavery and dealings with native americans as well. the high school I went to (in an east coast city and not too long ago) only covered abstinence in sex ed. we were never taught about condoms or other contraceptives. the potential for propaganda in public schools is the same, just at scale. in a democratic system, it's hard to teach things that parents don't want. I guess the most extreme views probably cancel out a bit as you scale up the system, but this has the tradeoff of baking in the status quo even more thoroughly.

implemented correctly, I don't think oversight and coordination would be a bad idea (although if it worked, we might consider applying it to our public/private/charter schools as well). I don't agree that all homeschooling should be banned until such measures are in place.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#477

Post by Fjolsvith » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

astrea wrote: post #404

microcolonel wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also just anecdotally, here in Ontario people seem to want to avoid catching and spreading the disease, more than to avoid clashing with the law (who can't really tell if you have a legitimate reason to be somewhere anyway); and the people who don't care about one don't care about the other either. For the handful of people I see clearly flaunting the restrictions here, I feel like more often than not they have decen…

> A free person does not take orders from the state, nor from anyone. A free person has a right to weigh advice and conscience on his own terms, and negotiate his externalities with society. How do you balance that with another person's right to live? If you as a free person decide "F it, I don't want to stay cooped up despite my positive diagnosis." Is that fair to someone you then infect out in public?

> Is that fair to someone you then infect out in public?

Why is it that for all of history this hasn't been an issue for infectious diseases until now?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#478

Post by vkou » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

Fjolsvith wrote: post #477

astrea wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A free person does not take orders from the state, nor from anyone. A free person has a right to weigh advice and conscience on his own terms, and negotiate his externalities with society. How do you balance that with another person's right to live? If you as a free person decide "F it, I don't want to stay cooped up despite my positive diagnosis." Is that fair to someone you then infect out in public?

> Is that fair to someone you then infect out in public? Why is it that for all of history this hasn't been an issue for infectious diseases until now?

It has, in fact, been an issue, which is why epidemic laws have been drafted, in the past, to control that behaviour.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#479

Post by xienze » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

ric2b wrote: post #352

xienze wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

Sure, if you cherry-pick a few countries (your list is basically the most impacted countries in Europe). If you include all European countries you get a different story. And Europe has roughly double the population of the US, it's not surprising that it has more cases in absolute numbers.

> Sure, if you cherry-pick a few countries (your list is basically the most impacted countries in Europe).

And yet we’re constantly compared against these countries and told they’re doing things “right” and the US is a disaster.

> If you include all European countries you get a different story.

You mean a bunch of Eastern European countries that basically aren’t doing any testing?

> And Europe has roughly double the population of the US, it's not surprising that it has more cases in absolute numbers.

EU 446M versus US 330M...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#480

Post by Accujack » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #370

bitcurious wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. This is a rather extremist take on the issue. You can be against unlawful orders while still obeying the scientific advisories. Take MA for example, where we have a stay-at-home advi…

Also just anecdotally, here in Ontario people seem to want to avoid catching and spreading the disease, more than to avoid clashing with the law (who can't really tell if you have a legitimate reason to be somewhere anyway); and the people who don't care about one don't care about the other either. For the handful of people I see clearly flaunting the restrictions here, I feel like more often than not they have decen…

>A free person does not take orders from the state, nor from anyone. A free person has a right to weigh advice and conscience on his own terms, and negotiate his externalities with society.

This hypothetical "free person" is then also responsible for the results of their actions and for any oversights or vulnerabilities caused by their "free" status.

There are very good reasons we allow ourselves to be part of a society or country - people are always better equipped to survive in groups.

The problem with positioning one's self as a "free person" is that most people advocating this don't comprehend how they benefit from being part of a country or people. Because they don't understand or identify those benefits, they are entirely unwilling to accept the lack of them which is the case if they're entirely "free".

Essentially, they want to have their cake and eat it too - all the benefits of belonging to a modern civilization with no sacrifice of freedom, possessions, or possibilities.

They usually have an ego that allows them to believe they're special for being a person that recognizes the desire to be "free" when the truth is that other people do recognize that desire but also that it's not possible to be entirely free without giving up the benefits of belonging to a group.

Thus,they view themselves as exceptional because they understand that they should be free, when in truth they're exceptional because they're ignorant.