This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…
Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
211–220 of 604 posts
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. The whole point of having an executive is for a single person to act alone and decisively, especially in times of crisis. In the midst of an emergency is not the time for legislative subcommittees to endlessly debate.
Actually, no. That would be a dictator. In American constitutional law the Executive has rather limited powers.
The US president has the power to unilaterally order a nuclear strike on any point on the planet at any time they choose, regardless of how anyone in the other branches feel about it at the time. So 'limited,' maybe, but also able to end life on Earth as we know it on a whim.
That's an aside, however. I'm talking about the general concept of an executive office, not specifically the US president. And sure, there can be limits, but the whole point of an executive is to avoid endless deliberation in the appropriate situations. Perfect example: Congress had the constitutional power to manage tariffs, and they surrendered that power to the president willingly because they weren't able to be decisive enough with it.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nonsense. You say that as if the 50 States' legislatures have been wiped out by covid-19 and can't convene (or be convened, as the case may be) and pass laws. In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the us…
Everything about the comment above is totally incorrect when it comes to the law in the US. Just to give you a taste of how wrong this is: the case isn't even about an executive order by a governor! It's about the rulemaking of the Secretary of the Department of Health Services. Not only is the parent wrong, the opinion actually goes out of it's way in the first paragraph to say this! "This case is not about Governor…
executive orders can decide what the law means
You should tell the SCOTUS that. They overturned 55% of Obama executive directives that reached them, and his administration had the most overturned unanimously (yes, even Ginsberg and Sotomayor) of any Presidency.>>Also, the U.S. Constitution's requirement that State governments be (small-r) republican
There is no such requirement
Dude. This is literally in Article IV:"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, ..."
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.
If it helps: If you have view dead turned on in your privilege you’ll see dead comments. Also, if a comment is too grey for you to read, clicking the time stamp will ship it in regular black text. I occasionally vouch for dead comments if they seem reasonable to me, and on occasion that has immediately un-dead them.
However I don't remember a comment that died that wasn't a crapfest.
Everybody gets downvoted sometimes, most of the times I was downvoted it was either because I failed to convey my thoughts correctly (well, sometimes I don't have the time or will to go into detail) or just ended up ranting. Opinionated comments (but worded ok) sometimes gets downvoted and that is fine.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…
Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.
And I assume you fool yourself into not wanting any of the rights you don't have, my fellow subject of the crown? Won't it be fun to be able to teach a pug to do a nazi salute once in a while?
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism "Extreme partisanship" is more evident in your complaint about a "striking down" that didn't happen of a "law" that doesn't exist . The Court upheld existing law and struck down executive actions that violated it. By the way, Supreme Court justices here in Wisconsin are elected on statewide ballots, not nominated for…
Wisconsin Statue 252.02 does exist.
Check out the summary [0] elsewhere in these comments (not mine, but I found it helpful).
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.
There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.
So the paramount need was to ensure that the health systems did not get overrun. We socially distance and stay at home until we're sure the health systems are in the clear, and then we return to some mixed approximation to 'normal,' with the understanding we'd probably have to return a few weeks at a time at some points in the future as case counts climbed again.
But at some point, almost every one I know has switched to believing that the real goal is eradication, that we need to be extremely socially distanced until case counts are near zero, or until a vaccine arrives. People now seem terrified at the thought of catching it, despite having no risk factors. What I don't understand is why this switch occurred. I think we have been seeing a lot of sensationalized headlines and statements from scientists taken out of context somewhat, but I don't think that in and of itself is enough to explain the switch.
Since about early March, we have known or strongly believed that the virus was mostly harmless to most people, with the extreme vast majority of serious cases occurring in people with high risks factors. So I have trouble understanding the extreme pushback against moderate reopening I am seeing out of a lot of people I know. People say "but we need to keep case counts low." Yes, I agree, but I don't know how in the world we get them to zero. Containment was broken. If we're going to be angry, let's be angry about the fact that nothing was done to attempt full containment until it was far too late, not the fact that places are ready to fulfill the statements they made in March.
We can't even count on a vaccine to ever come, because there are issues with some coronavirus vaccines. For instance, the vaccine for SARS become not recommended after research showed that, while it prevented future infections from SARS, it made infections from other coronaviruses more damaging. The last thing we want to do is rush a vaccine through human trials that ends up causing more harm than good, but that's what's going to happen if we believe we're all trapped in our houses until one comes.
Anyways, I'm just not sure where the switch happened. Why are so many people I know now frantically talking about how they need to stay home through September or later, after being told just a mere 2 months ago that the goal was curve-flattening? In most areas in the US, it seems the curve has been flattened. Where I live (a mid-sized city), the health system was never remotely close to being stressed. Yes, case counts will increase if you reopen a bit, but remember, 40%-70% of the pop is going to catch it at some point. Those people are going to catch it whether they catch it now, or six months from now.
If you can't tell from my comment, I think (as is usually the case) the right approach sits directly in between the "open now" and "keep everything shut down" camps. The virus is an extremely serious event, a terrible tragedy, and one that we need to ensure we keep from overwhelming hospitals. But where hospitals are not in any danger of being overwhelmed, I just don't know what good having everyone indefinitely locked at home is doing. Taking what seem to be unreasonably conservative stances now does not fix the bullshit actions by our governments 3 months ago; that ship is gone.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#218Color me unsurprised. Politics in Wisconsin is incredibly broken[1] (and purposefully so). [1]: https://www.wpr.org/us-supreme-court-ruling-effectively-ends...
As someone who grew up in WI, I can say it's disgusting to watch the state get ransacked, from the gerrymandering to the pillaging of the UW system, to the rejection of universal collective bargaining rights and evicting of citizens off their own land for a Foxconn factory. It makes me ashamed.
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.
I really have to agree with you here. Ever since the pandemic started to ramp up, downvotes and hidden comments did as well. I'll see more greyed out comments in a single thread these days than I used to see all day just a year or two ago. Even I've gotten into a bad habit of using it, and I'm trying to avoid it. If a person posts something intentionally inflammatory or clearly just wants to pick a fight, the flag bu…
Presumably because the anti-speech contingent is all too quick to downvote their opponents (consistent with their deleterious pro-censorship views), but then everyone who believes in speech sees every comment defending it greyed out, which makes them angry that their anti-censorship views are not being respected and unwilling to let the other side have an asymmetric weapon even if it goes against their principles, and the next thing you know every comment in the thread is grey.
And that's the danger of censorship. Nobody is going to let the other side do it but not them, but then everybody does it and and then what are you left with?
Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses
#220This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…