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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#471

Post by beatgammit »

tzs wrote: post #220
Iwillgetby wrote: post #78

Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church's toilets once a year to get to heaven?

That's the thing I find most interesting about the Mormon church. In most other churches if you don't get into heaven your afterlife really really really sucks. They tend to be very binary--eternity in paradise, or eternity of inconceivable torture and torment. Mormon afterlife has four possible destinations: the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the outer darkness. The Celestial…

The torment part is from the individual guilt of knowing you could have received greater glory, and damnation is the halting of eternal progress. It's the same type of thing that leads people to want more and more things in this life, and knowing that you can never have the nice things your neighbor has is unacceptable to many and is why (IMO) so many people with good jobs live paycheck to paycheck. If your content with a pretty good eternal state and don't want to put in the effort to get to the highest state, then you have your reward (and it'll be pretty nice too), but you'll likely wish you did more at some point.

That being said, the whole point is that Jesus isn't trying to punish anyone, he just wants you to be as comfortable as possible, while meeting the demands of justice. What would be worse, the guilt of knowing you could have done better, or imposter syndrome of knowing you don't deserve to be in the presence of those who were more faithful?

Honestly, I find the binary nature of the afterlife of most religious traditions to be inconsistent with the idea of a merciful God. What does God get out of punishing you? Why would his love for you end just because you died? Is not getting baptized really bad enough to warrant eternal punishment?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#472

Post by beatgammit »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #408
Invictus0 wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your comment, it provides nice additional context to the discussion--but I feel like you've done more to affirm the other comments in this thread than refute them. In your own words, the Church is a gerontocracy wielding enormous wealth and therefore power, dodging taxes, and siphoning funds intended for charitable purposes. It's one thing for the Church to want to avoid going bankrupt, but how can you jus…

The claimed concern is that in a severe economic downturn, the church wants to be able to both continue operating and help people in need. They say it’s a rainy day fund, and I think in the leadership’s mind that’s exactly what it is. The church’s yearly operating expenses are somewhere in the neighborhood of $7B. Add another $7B on top of that for feeding the membership in a Great Depression situation, and add a los…

And for secrecy, the church got screwed pretty hard early on (driven from place to place, leadership beaten and murdered, forced to move west, investigated by the military, etc). It makes complete sense to only give out as much information as you can, especially when there are so many looking to destroy the church and if you assume that the devil is literally behind people trying to destroy the church. It's a very different type of secrecy compared to other groups, like Scientologists, at least that's the way it feels to me.

And yes, I completely agree that the church should probably adjust its focus a bit. I think the church has plenty in the bank, so what's wrong with having most of the income used for feeding the poor and everything else Jesus recommended?

However, that's really not my call, and IMO it's not really my business. I give my tithing because I'm asked to, not because I think the church will use it optimally. It's a show of obedience to God and faith that the leadership is being a good steward of that money. It isn't my choice how the church leadership chooses to use that money, it's my choice whether to give, and it's my choice whether to give extra to causes I believe in. So I do. I give to the church as well as other causes I believe in. Jesus recommended to give everything, and I feel like I do pretty much the same thing as the church (most excess goes to investments, which I hope will allow me to dedicate my life to helping others once I retire, hopefully early).

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#473

Post by beatgammit »

codingdave wrote: post #52
wincy wrote: post #12

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialis…

> It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine. And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave th…

I think the problem is that "communism" has a ton of baggage that implies a lot of things that aren't actually part of communism. Communism is actually a stateless ideology, which is completely different from the common usage of the term in describing countries like China and the USSR.

With the law of consecration, there's a clear, but voluntary state, and the end goal isn't the dissolution of the state, but the ending of the expectation to give up your property (the law would go away, but you'd continue to give because you want to). It's not socialism because it doesn't matter who owns the means of production, it only matters that the production is given to the church to be redistributed. It isn't communism because there is a clear state, but I suppose it's close since ideally there wouldn't be any social classes or coercion.

The main similarity is the ideal of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", but I think there are enough differences to make it reasonable to say it's not communism, but it is a collectivist system with similar goals.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#474

Post by johnsonjo »

akira2501 wrote: post #224
dorian-graph wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple ? There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt…

> and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). Matthew 19:24, direct 'quote' from Jesus: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Seems pretty clear. > being to only have necessary debt (e.g. university or a house) I work for a Mormon owned company, this ideology even extends th…

> > and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). > Matthew 19:24, direct 'quote' from Jesus: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Seems pretty clear.

Here’s the full passage from 19:24-26

> 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. > 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? > 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

It’s not evil to be rich. In my mind richness just makes being evil easier. Being rich without God in your life is what Christ was saying makes it impossible to enter the kingdom of God. I have a very wise neighbor who said that richness of the World is a great accelerator for a greater Good or a greater Evil. Here’s a relevant scripture from The Book of Mormon that basically states it’s not evil to be rich, Jacob 2:18-19

> 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. > 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

People may not like the Church or what it does for whatever reasons, but it does a great amount of good for people and that good often has nothing to do with money, but with a better outlook on life and an understanding of our place in it. I know those that leave the Church sometimes get a hard time from members. Sometimes people have bad experiences with members of the Church, but the Church teaches what Christ would have us do and sometimes people fall short of that, that doesn’t make the Church wrong. It just means the Church has imperfect members.

The keystone of our religion is The Book of Mormon and it is a beautiful book. The doctrine in it is superb. I believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, and that it would enable one to understand the mind, will, and character of Christ. If someone reads it with an open heart and mind they can come closer to Christ. I am far from done learning from it despite having read it over 7-8 times. It teaches of Christ’s and God’s mercy, but also their justice and law. It explains the purpose of life on Earth (2 Nephi 2), and the reason for God’s punishment to the wicked (Alma 42). It preaches repentance which I’ve had explained to me as a turning towards God. It explains that people prosper when they live righteously and that wickedness often leads to personal and societal downfall. It also teaches that the rain falls on both the righteous and the wicked. It explains Charity and love. It teaches pride, doubt, discouragement as antitheses of faith. It teaches humility, virtue, honesty, faith, hope, and diligence. It teaches that sometimes the truth can be hard, like as it was for those who heard Christ’s Sermon at Capernaum and took the words to be hard and walked no more with Christ. The book has a reference to Christ on average every other verse [1]. It teaches of the purpose of agency and why people are allowed to make wrong choices that affect and hurt others. It also teaches of the choice to choose liberty (the freedom to choose that comes only by living the law) and eternal life according to Christ or captivity and death (meaning spiritual death) through the Devil.

Of course knowledge of the truth of something including the character of Christ doesn’t lead one to automatically follow it which is why we all need all the help we can get honestly.

> They cite the parable of the three talents, but I think they've gravely misunderstood that passage. The point wasn't for the servants to make money for themselves, it was to share their efforts and work with the world around them in order to improve it for everyone. God had given them these gifts and they weren't to waste them, not hoard them for themselves. > God had given them these gifts and they weren't to waste them, not hoard them for themselves.

I think God gave them those talents, so that they would build and multiply them. I know you may think the church is the one burying their talent in the ground, but the gift of money is best used if invested and multiplied. Regardless, I believe there to be multiple correct interpretations of that parable and multiple meanings to it, so I’m not discounting the fact that you are supposed to share your talents as well.

My faith in the Church comes fundamentally down to my own personal spiritual witness of the truth of The Book of Mormon and in my testimony of modern revelation, and I firmly believe that Christ leads the Church. As stated in Isaiah 55:8 sometimes God can have a wiser purpose than we see in things this is why coupled with my personal testimony of The Book of Mormon these attacks against the church barely cast a shadow of a doubt about the truthfulness of it in both my heart and mind.

[1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1978/07/dis...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#475

Post by beatgammit »

camhart wrote: post #64
wincy wrote: post #12

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialis…

I actually had the same thought back in high school. In my opinion there's an important difference though. Communism is forced upon you and removes freedoms. Law of consecration is voluntary--a choice you make. Most Bishops (local leaders) will tell the family to stop paying tithes for a time or to continue to pay but then they turn around and give them food and a check for rent/mortgage until you're back on your fee…

Communism is usually coercive, at least in the implementations we've seen, but there are plenty of theories that don't require coercion. That being said, the common usage of the term "communism" implies a dictatorship with heavy coercion.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#476

Post by tony »

I have LDS in my family, I have an anecdote just this week

I was looking up genealogy of my family and found my Aunt already added my great grandparents back in Poland. The church runs the website and offers it free of charge (https://www.familysearch.org/), you don't need to be a member to use it.

Another anecdote is Matz, creator of ruby is a member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc

Also they make really nice music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY

On the subject of churches asking for tithes and donations - I've seen various denominations do it and never felt odd about it. Back in my hometown, our church was the ones doing outreach to help the local homeless and getting them back on their feet (not the city or country, that's for sure). This was the early 90s though.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#477

Post by sofal »

dang wrote: post #444
sofal wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the metaphor was pejorative, and I don't see how that could be worse than "a distillation of disgruntled exmembers", which has been the constant categorization of people who have left the church. That being said, I don't think either the comment I responded to or my own comment was out of bounds, insulting, or crossed into "flamewar territory". Rather, the impression I'm getting is that any disagreeme…

"Used car dealer" is a pejorative metaphor; it connotes self-interested deception of others. I didn't mean to read anger into your comment. What I'm concerned about is how such comments land with other people who happen to be reading the thread. When there are well-known patterns of provocation in a comment which are likely to trigger others and lead to a predictable flamewar, that's flamebait, and it needs to be avo…

Using a metaphor of "used care dealer" is gratuitously provocative according to you? Does that standard apply consistently? It's not a flattering comparison, but it is not even remotely gratuitous. Used car dealers are real people earning perfectly acceptable livings. It's also a perfectly apt metaphor. I understand that used car dealers have a job to do and that it involves convincing me to buy a used car. I also understand that they may not see it important or relevant to their situation to tell me the bad along with the good, and that it is in my best interest to have the car inspected by someone with no skin in the game. It's an obvious case of making sure incentives do not align against you.

It applies perfectly well to Mormonism. If you had only trusted me to tell you about my religion when I was a missionary for 2 years in South America convincing people to become Mormon, you would have gotten a very whitewashed and carefully selected story. This is not because I intentionally deceived people. It was not out of self-interested deception. It was because I felt it important to my God-sent mission that people learn to love the church so that they can be baptized. There were so many facts that hadn't been taught to me, and in addition there were plenty of facts that I didn't see necessary to teach people.

You think I'm demonizing my own people and myself when I use the used car dealer metaphor? That is simply an incorrect and strangely motivated interpretation of what I said.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#478

Post by curiousgeorgio »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #452
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' perspective is similar, but (in my opinion) a little more straightforward. Faith leads a person to do good works (because faith helps one understand God's love for us, and we in turn want to share that), but neither faith nor good works alone will give us salvation (we can't save ourselves, which is why Jesus Christ is the key). Salvation requires Christ t…

Both Mormons and Protestants get this passage wrong most of the time. I don’t know about Catholics. Entry into the earthly Kingdom of God is based on the ancient suzerainty covenant, the covenant you as a citizen of a kingdom make with the ruler. You are accepted into the kingdom by swearing “faith” (eg fealty) to the suzerain. In return you are promised the protection of the suzerain; you receive the rights of a cit…

Thanks for the insight. A lot of the difference seems to arise from a different interpretation of the word salvation. In some contexts, that does (as you mention) refer to a covenant relationship with Christ. In other contexts, salvation (as understood in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) may refer to our desired state after this life, also known as exaltation or eternal life, which is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever.

Or as John put it: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#479

Post by johnsonjo »

godelski wrote: post #410
tptacek wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Educate me? I'm trying to understand.

The church (LDS) has 3 kingdoms of heaven (see link wiki I provided above). The lowest tier of heaven is where Hitler would go were he to accept Christ, in the afterlife. Presumably someone would do a baptism for him and he would have to accept it or not. The post is saying that those that leave the church would be placed into the same grouping as Hitler (tier 3). My actual understanding, having grown up in the churc…

> Side note: You can only get into the Celestial Kingdom (tier 1) if you accept the Mormon doctrine while on Earth (there are also 3 subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom that you can move through within the afterlife, but you are not able to move kingdoms).

This just isn’t true that you have to be a Mormon on the Earth to receive the highest degree. We believe you have to have a body to receive your ordinances, but there’s a reason people visit the Temple after they have done their own ordinances and covenants and that is, so they can do temple work and baptisms for those who have passed, and they do this as proxies for the deceased much like Paul taught baptisms for the dead(1 Corinthians 15:29).

> It can entirely be interpreted that I rejected the gospel and so am placed into the same category as mass murderers.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad place though. (Also if you choose to never accept Christ until the final resurrection then that’s your choice, but I don’t think you’re doomed to it). Here’s a quote from that D&C 76 about the tier 3 as you called it or the telestial as it’s called there:

> 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial , which surpasses all understanding;

> 90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

So, the glory itself exceeds all understanding it reminds me a lot of 1 Corinthians 2 particularly 9 & 10.

> 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

> 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I think we’ll all come to see God’s and Christ’s great mercy at the Judgement seat.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#480

Post by tomcam »

x1oqw wrote: post #19
tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

> (of course they don't believe in Christ)

Mind reading. Would you like me to tell you what's going on in your head? I'm not a Christian, BTW. But this isn't the place to make inflammatory statements.

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