EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard • Hacker News Board

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#471

Post by wsy » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 12:43 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #438

wsy wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please make yourself familiar with a bit more modern economic theories. The belief that the unregulated market moves things to an optimum for all participants has been proven to be wrong by modern game theory. Not all economic games have their equilibrium at the optimum for consumers. I leave open if this particular intervention on chargers is beneficial for the public or not, but you will have to argue about charger…

And taking a look at history - even recent history. The government definitely doesn’t move things in an optimum way for all participants. The difference is that businesses don’t have the power of the state to compel me to buy their products. I can change phones a lot easier than I can change governments.

Again, you need to show specifically that a uniform charger is less beneficial to consumers than letting Apple keep their proprietary patent-protected charger.

I want my iPhone and my Android phone and my tablet and my notebook to share the same charging port. I would definitely buy an iPhone with USB-C if the market would offer one to me. However, the market won't give that to me. Even if 90% of iPhone buyers would prefer USB-C over Lightning, Apple would not give it to us, because it is beneficial for their business to build their own walled garden.

I don't know if forcing Apple to agree with other vendors is a net benefit for all consumers or not. However, as you seem to have a very strong opinion on why that would be detrimental to consumers, you need to show where consumers would be negatively affected, specifically for charging ports.

This has nothing to do with what one thinks about governments in general.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#472

Post by wsy » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #439

wsy wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything where high interoperability is more beneficial for consumers than proprietary solutions by individual companies. As a rule of thumb, everything where standardization brings more benefits to consumers than innovation. Note that as consumer, I can't vote with my money for standardization. I can only vote for one of the proprietary solutions. So if 70% of consumers stick to one option, and 30% stick to the ot…

So it would be more beneficial that Apple is forced to make FaceTime interoperable and all messaging platforms. Should the government enforce that too?

I have a hard time understanding the question. If something is overwhelmingly beneficial for everyone, I don't mind at all if market or government make it happen. I just want it to happen.

Again, to not be misunderstood, I'm not sure if charger standardization is indeed overwhelmingly beneficial for everyone. That is what I believe we should discuss here.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#473

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

defnotashton2 wrote: post #391

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Less hassle, less wasteful, disposable electronic junk.

The costs of the ink this regulation will be printed on will cost more than whatever its attempting to save.

The message that it sends to companies that don't play ball, and sort something out voluntarily between themselves that is in consumers' best interests (and by this I mean Apple), will be worth it.

"an expensive legislative bill" was not the first recourse to "how we solve that problem". But it is a necessary fallback.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#474

Post by norswap » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

What a load of bad faith from Apple to argue "against waste". Their latest Macbooks only have USB-C slots, meaning one now needs to discard perfectly good USB-A/HDMI/Thunderbolt (the last one being a port that they were the major force behind) devices, or at least buy adapters.

My brother remarked recently: "What's the point of having thin laptops, if you have to carry a book-size hub with you." (Which is also the reason people might be tempted to wastefully discard USB-A peripherals in favour of USB-C alternatives.)

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#475

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

wsy wrote: post #471

scarface74 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And taking a look at history - even recent history. The government definitely doesn’t move things in an optimum way for all participants. The difference is that businesses don’t have the power of the state to compel me to buy their products. I can change phones a lot easier than I can change governments.

Again, you need to show specifically that a uniform charger is less beneficial to consumers than letting Apple keep their proprietary patent-protected charger. I want my iPhone and my Android phone and my tablet and my notebook to share the same charging port. I would definitely buy an iPhone with USB-C if the market would offer one to me. However, the market won't give that to me. Even if 90% of iPhone buyers would…

What I am saying is simple. Giving the government more power without a compelling reason is always detrimental. Making things a little more convenient is not compelling.

But why stop at the connector? Why not force Apple to make AirDrop, FaceTime interoperable? Why not force Apple to port iCloud backups to Android or force Apple to allow backups to third party providers?

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#476

Post by kalleboo » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #411

kalleboo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying I'm in favor of anything, just that you bought some cheap unlicensed chinese garbage off of Amazon doesn't prove that Apple doesn't charge a $4/connector license fee. Amazon is well known for selling piles of counterfeit crap

So it’s counterfeit because it’s not license. What do you think is going to happen when you buy cheap USB C cables? On one one hand, everyone is arguing that Apple’s proprietary cables are cynical attempt to make money and they shouldn’t have that control and people should have the choice. Now I am showing you they already have that choice.

USB is also licensed, it's just far cheaper. The USB license is more about making things compatible rather than making money.

> What do you think is going to happen when you buy cheap USB C cables?

I can buy licensed USB-C cables from reputable brands for cheaper than I can buy licensed Lightning cables from reputable brands. And the USB-C cables are more complex to manufacture. One example is Amazon Basics.

> Now I am showing you they already have that choice.

People will always have the choice to buy anything as long as cash exists. But if you want to buy something that is quality, you will look to a reputable brand. A reputable brand will be economically successful, so it is a target for lawsuits, so they will always enter a license. If the license for Lighting costs more than the license for USB, then a consumer who wants to buy a quality cable will always pay more.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#477

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #464

scarface74 wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it would be more beneficial that Apple is forced to make FaceTime interoperable and all messaging platforms. Should the government enforce that too?

No one other than you has brought that up. It’s perfectly possible to have sensible hardware standards where doing so will not impede the market without insisting that all software be also standardised. For the record I think it would be useful for Apple to have the built in Facetime client be able to communicate with other phone platforms. I don’t think Apple should be compelled to offer that currently.

Let’s say back in the day when Apple has the Apple Desktop Bus for low speed peripherals and Nubus for cards, would you also have been in favor of the government forcing Apple to use PS/2 and ISA?

The Android market is just like the PC market of old - a slow moving race to the bottom. Even today, most low end Android phones are still using Micro USB.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#478

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #278

scarface74 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing that Apple is always bragging about their 90%+ retention rate, not many people are switching from iOS devices and throwing away cables. But is “think about the environment” the new “think about the children” and “terrorism” war cry for more regulation and big government?

But if I switch to apple I have to throw out my cables, too. Maybe try to look at this differently: is your life better for the fact that when you travel you need to bring power plug adapters? If cars had different gas plugs that required different gas stations, would that be nice?

And there is no government mandate for cars to have a standard gas plug. Car manufactures know that it would make the car less desirable in the market.

But in fact, you can sell a car with non standard methods of making it move - see Tesla. They didn’t have to wait for the nanny state or other manufacturers to agree on a standard before it started shipping cars.

The market decided it was worth the tradeoff.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#479

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

wsy wrote: post #472

scarface74 wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it would be more beneficial that Apple is forced to make FaceTime interoperable and all messaging platforms. Should the government enforce that too?

I have a hard time understanding the question. If something is overwhelmingly beneficial for everyone, I don't mind at all if market or government make it happen. I just want it to happen. Again, to not be misunderstood, I'm not sure if charger standardization is indeed overwhelmingly beneficial for everyone. That is what I believe we should discuss here.

But there is never anything that is “beneficial for everyone” and the government does in the best case what is beneficial to their specific voters - even if it is detrimental to others. There is a very high bar for me to say that the government should step in. A powerful Government is more harmful than a powerful business.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#480

Post by wsy » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #475

wsy wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you need to show specifically that a uniform charger is less beneficial to consumers than letting Apple keep their proprietary patent-protected charger. I want my iPhone and my Android phone and my tablet and my notebook to share the same charging port. I would definitely buy an iPhone with USB-C if the market would offer one to me. However, the market won't give that to me. Even if 90% of iPhone buyers would…

What I am saying is simple. Giving the government more power without a compelling reason is always detrimental. Making things a little more convenient is not compelling. But why stop at the connector? Why not force Apple to make AirDrop, FaceTime interoperable? Why not force Apple to port iCloud backups to Android or force Apple to allow backups to third party providers?

I think we have to agree to disagree. I assume that you are not living in the EU. Our experiences here with governmental regulation are not so bad. Companies are complaining, but consumers are not.

Making things a little more convenient for everybody is super-compelling if there is no downside. Freedom for humans is an extremely high value. However, companies are not humans, there is no inherent benefit in giving them as much freedom as possible. And I know economics well enough to confidently state that freedom for companies does not naturally cause well-being and freedom for humans.

And definitely: Every country regulated power outlets. Every country regulated landline phone connections. Every country regulated mobile phone transmission. EU even regulated mobile phone roaming prices. Now they are regulating chargers. And I hope they won't stop, but do everything to keep modern technology open. Industry loves to lock consumers into separate, proprietary, walled gardens. There is no viable strategy for individual consumers to escape. The only viable strategy to escape is by regulation.