Live data from Hacker News

In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

471–480 of 501 posts

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the tough call needs to be made that when someone is obviously mentally ill, homeless and without proper sane supervision, the State should institutionalize them indefinitely.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

Do you think there is no objective standard by which we can judge consistent, completely insane, detached behavior?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#472

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

> At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attracting" homeless to the city, despite the fact that the data show this trope to be a fiction.

What data are you referring to? Governments in the Seattle area manage to spend over a billion dollars each year on the homeless problem. With about 10,000 people, that’s about $100,000 per person per year (both numbers are 2017). And they only house about 50%, which means $200,000 per person housed in temporary or permanent housing.

Somehow New York City houses 80% of a larger homeless population (60,000) for around $50,000 per person. They are three times more effective with their money.

People should be yelling. The data does suggest that policies on the west coast are expensive and ineffective. They aren’t good for anyone. I think the author of this post [1] makes greats points about the problems of unlimited compassion. Looking at the numbers really changes how I feel about the tent city down the street from me.

[1] https://www.city-journal.org/seattle-homelessness

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

The King County Needle Exchange is why there's needles absolutely everywhere. Safe injection won, and now you can't walk anywhere barefoot.

Where were you walking barefoot before that you no longer can?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#474

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

There are people who are mentally ill, addicted to drugs, and/or abused. The streets are no place to heal these wounds, they are a place for them to fester. Modern asylums and rehab centers should be built, along with shelter space with counseling and medical services.

Leaving people to rot on the street for even an instant longer is abhorrently inhumane, and the local government officials in charge of our west coast cities should just resign, since they so clearly lack any empathy or rational thinking.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

I had a conversation with someone the other day who made many of the same arguments as you. I agreed with some of it--namely that around safe injection, harm reduction, methadone (et al) clinics, etc.--but I had a hard time stomaching the idea that "housing first" was a good idea, in that if you take a drug addict and put them in a home, they're still a drug addict who can't contribute meaningfully to society. Would…

How could you possibly battle drug addiction or mental illness while sleeping on concrete exposed to elements and crime? It's constant stress that makes these issues worse, not better, every single day you live on the street.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#476
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me all of these issues seem like the same ones San Francisco is facing, which leads me to conclude that neither lowering income taxes nor raising income taxes is likely to solve them.

I've lived in both those cities this decade; the results are in some cases similar, but the issues are in fact different. The thing that's similar : both cities are warm enough so that you can reasonably live on the streets year round. Boston's an intensely liberal city and nobody uses it as an example of how liberal cities always have homeless problems. Similarly, Google "dallas homeless problem" sometime. Warm city…

More homeless die of hypothermia in Los Angeles than in NYC.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the tough call needs to be made that when someone is obviously mentally ill, homeless and without proper sane supervision, the State should institutionalize them indefinitely.

And also suspend pretty basic rights, and deal with all the outcomes from people being institutionalized for not so well meaning reasons?

I'd admit my brother if he were doing this. Say what you will about the ghoulish hollywood history of asylums, but surviving on the streets is no environment to improve your mental health.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that article: > Charges for the first three assaults were dismissed by the City of Seattle because of mental health concerns, prosecutors said in the charging papers. Jesus, WTF? If he is attacking people because of mental illness, why isn't he locked up in a mental hospital? "Sorry, you attacked people but you're crazy, so have a nice day!" And why is trying to throw someone off an overpass charged with assault…

https://mynorthwest.com/1315319/seattle-jonathan-james-wilso... ? "An individual cannot legally be prosecuted in the criminal justice system if they are not competent because they will not be able to assist in their own defense. When a Mental Health Evaluation determines that an individual is not competent, prosecutors may move for competency restoration. In the three Seattle Municipal Court cases involving Mr. Wilso…

Once you voluntarily make the claim, "I am too insane for the criminal justice system to apply to me," things seem more clear cut. If you feel you're innocent and sane, choose a different defense?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#479
post #2

So same as Portugal has been doing for decades - decriminalise small use and treat it as a public health problem instead of making average citizens into criminals. Portugal has a lot of bad things to it, but having no war on drugs has made it into one of the most peaceful countries on earth. And marijuana usage is pretty low, Last I checked. Why? Probably because it’s not a special thing. I’ve always pondered why the…

Is it the same thing? The article is about just not enforcing the law. Portugal changed their laws.

Well my impressions is that they de facto trying to adjust while keeping de jure the same situation. I did not read the whole article however, just skimmed it as fast as I could.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#480
post #385
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> According to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), in 2005, the rate of drug-related deaths per capita in Sweden was more than twice that of the Netherlands and there were more persons addicted to severe narcotics ("heavy drugs") than in other countries It doesn't seem to be working that well, does it?

Is drug related death really the right stat to use? Seems like it doesn’t tell the whole story.

Considering the low rate of drug usage in Sweden amongst the general population it seems to tell a sorry story about Swedish drug policy...
Post reply on HN