Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#471

Post by goblekitepe » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:45 PM UTC

angry_octet wrote: post #413

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

You don't need to 'educate' parents as to the importance of education. It is a typical rich person bias to believe that poor and disadvanted people need to be told that. Likewise, people know that getting pregnant at 16 is not a great life plan. But the fundamentalist right have been campaigning for decades to control women's reproduction, including to prevent sexual health education, prevent contraception, and to de…

What's tragic is that millions of poor children are being raised in households considered poor because there is only a single earner. We have to address the cultural issues leading to the epidemic of single parent households.

That will do far more for the children of the future than anything else.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#472

Post by boulos » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:47 PM UTC

patricius wrote: post #450

boulos wrote: post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

No minimum wage is able to remove poverty. Set it too low and it has no effect, since it will be below the price you are able to get on a free market. Set it too high and fewer jobs will be available, and thus less people are able to earn money to fight their poverty.

That’s theoretically true, but we’ve (seemingly) never come close to that in the US. Moreover, as the article reminds us, the minimum wage has been drastically higher (in real terms) than it is now.

Regardless of the correct level before causing a crowding out of employment, what do you believe the purpose of having a minimum wage is (if not to prevent poverty)? Why not just let the market decide?

Edit: I mean this seriously, and don’t intend it as an attack. I’m (personally) unclear on the perceived purpose of the minimum wage.

Edit 2: like many folks, my “we’ve never come close to it” is influenced by http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509 and similar studies, and I’m aware of the opinions that the study was flawed or doesn’t generalize (e.g., https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/timworstal...).

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#473

Post by rascul » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:50 PM UTC

boulos wrote: post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

Interestingly enough, $7.25 would be enough for me to get by just fine where I'm at in Mississippi. I wouldn't have much left over, but it would more than cover my bills, food, and transportation. Not everyone could do it, but based on the numbers and my current expenses, I could. It's also a bit rare to find a job paying that little around here, based on what I saw during my job search in the beginning of the year. McDonald's, Lowe's and Walmart are all paying several dollars more than that. The dollar stores tend to pay that low, or slightly more, though.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#474

Post by daddyofive » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:54 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #102

burfog wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have social mobility, not a social lottery. Moving all the way from the bottom to the top might take a couple generations, which will obviously involve needing to win at a fierce competition. That looks an awful lot like a meritocracy.

That sounds like a crap deal honestly. Come to the US, you'll probably still die poor, but at least maybe your grandchildren will do well. * * does not apply if you or your children get shot by the police for being the wrong shade of brown, maimed by unsafe working conditions associated with low-skilled labour, get sacked because you ask for a raise, etc.

I knew a girl from a bad part of la. She was Latino. One time she complained to me how the cops harass her friends when they walk around the neighborhood. I asked her what kind of clothes her friends wear, and she obviously replied that they wear saggy pants and black hoodies and so on. I said that if I were in their situation, I would dress in clothes that are impossible to get you mistaken for a drug dealer or a gang banger — simple jeans and a tucked in shirt with a collar. That would be my plan if I were in their situation and I wanted the cops to stop. She just scrunched her eyebrows and said that “we don’t have to change they way we dress!” Well you don’t have to go to college or start your own business or wear any clothes at all but unfortunately you are subject to the economy and the world and you can’t have a nice life and never do anything at all to deliberately secure that end. Sorry.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#475

Post by ss2003 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:56 PM UTC

lyzan wrote: post #411

presscast wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time is money, as the saying goes. When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever). The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.

I work 80+ hours a week, you don't need to tell me about time. However EVERY friend I have making significantly less than me / slightly struggling works a single job and spends significant free time in front of TV or games or facebook. My friend that worked hard all the time I taught coding to in under 8 months and he broke 6 figures within 3 years. The ones that were lazy I tried and they didn't put effort in to con…

Not everyone is cut out to be a programmer

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#476

Post by guilhas » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:57 PM UTC

In Venezuela, housewives or stay-at-home mother is considered a job.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#477

Post by liftbigweights » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

neilwilson wrote: post #148

If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Systemically the 'interest rate targeting' approach starts to tighten up policy when unemployment gets below 5% - which they consider 'full employment' even though 1 in 20 haven't got jobs.…

> If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is.

The example I've come across was of musical chairs. If there are 3 seats and 10 people, no matter what, some people will be out of luck.

I find it strange reading all the "get an education" or "don't have babies out of wedlock" attacks. If everyone in the country got PhDs, we still have the same level of poverty. If everyone married and then had babies, we'd still have the same level of poverty.

Lets say every american went to medical school and become doctors. You know what we'd have? A lot of doctors in poverty. If everyone became a software developer like me, we'd have hordes of poor developers.

The dominant economic system ( quasi mercantilistic capitalism with some social protections ) today pretty much guarantees poverty for a portion of the population. It's structurally systematic. The system is designed for income inequality and no matter what, we will have few extraordinary wealthy and lots of people in poverty. This is the dominant trend with a few blips ( the burgeoning of the middle class post ww2 US, but that was an anomally ).

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#478

Post by rascul » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

boulos wrote: post #456

weliketocode wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Why or how would the minimum wage be compared to the average wage of another country? It's the minimum. - Agreed on the single earner families on minimum wage guaranteed to be in poverty. But, pointing somewhere else and saying "It's better there!" seems off to me. Pick a specific policy and advocate for it. Higher minimum wage? Guaranteed housing? Universal basic income?

Sorry, my comment started as a reply to the comment about “better than most countries” [1] (hence the comparison). I explicitly didn’t want to make this comment about advocating for a policy, but first to make sure we’re all on the same page: the US minimum wage isn’t enough to get by on. I should have added that a huge portion of the labor force is at or near this rate, except again I’m on my phone, so I couldn’t ba…

> the US minimum wage isn’t enough to get by on

Depends on where in the US you live.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#479

Post by specialist » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

boulos wrote: post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

(Accepting everything you've stated.)

What are some optimal tax rates? What are the target individual finances (food, housing, retirement, etc)? What should government spend money on?

I manifestly do not care what the absolute values are for minimum wage, fees, various tax rates, government spending, etc.

I do care about fairness, equal opportunity, rule of law, and empowerment. I care that people can feed and educate their kids, grow old, and play with their grandkids.

---

I want a SimCity for IRL policy.

Policy makers first simulate their proposals. Then repeat their experiments in the real world.

First a little, then a lot.

Hypothesis, experiment, evaluate. Rinse, lather, repeat.

As circumstances change and new ideas crop up, better strategies displace old strategies.

--

We're geeks. We should be thinking about this stuff systematically. Lead by example.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#480

Post by candiodari » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

badminton1 wrote: post #186

candiodari wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that as if those products are interchangeable. You cannot simply take those missiles away and buy 2000 water bags. The US military, especially, is the largest job and training program anywhere in the world, including the military industrial complex (most of those military contracts, incidentally, do not just come with jobs, but with demands that those companies hire x0000 (3 or 4 zeros) in the states that hav…

It is true that the defense and aerospace sector employs larges amount of people and drives significant amount of R&D. But getting inefficient for them became highly profitable and the F-35 JSF is the prime example of that. Then, if fruit pickers made $20 an hour, you would be getting all of your fruit from Mexico/Central America, and fruit and all products made from it would be more expensive. Other jobs like garden…

Not just that, those programs create (and are explicitly required to do so) large amounts of spinoffs in specific states. This is one force (almost the only one, frankly) that spreads knowledge, creates new centers of expertise across the US and thus binds the US together economically and socially. (NASA being the other, much smaller one doing this)

It would be very bad to kill it without replacement.