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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#401

Post by coldtea »

sheepmullet wrote: post #357
coldtea wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? When you live life in easy mode is easy to make the right choices. It's also easy to see some people who managed to play in hard mode and win, and extrapolate to eve…

> nor it makes it any more statistically possible for the masses to win the hard mode gameplay they were dealt. You don’t have to go back many generations to see that compared to today almost everyone played on hard mode.

>You don’t have to go back many generations to see that compared to today almost everyone played on hard mode.

Hard mode is comparable across the same game. Those in 1800 played 1800s game, those in Nigeria play the Nigerian game, etc.

You wouldn't consider it much of a success if a person with huge work, skills, and effort got themselves to 1800-era middle class possessions TODAY, would you?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#402

Post by Gorbzel »

hhjinks wrote: post #380
iei02ndjd wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you intend to fund the design, implementation, and ongoing maintenance of such a massive social engineering program? Your anecdote doesn’t really mean much. “Significantly way better” is apparently still not enough. Similar to why food stamps are cheaper than food education. The administrative burden is prohibitively expensive. Let’s not consider the thesis at hand here; jobs aren’t the answer. That fl…

>How exactly do you intend to fund the design, implementation, and ongoing maintenance of such a massive social engineering program? Maybe take some money out of military spending? Educate the population, the economy soars, and then you can re-increase the military budget 30 years down the line.

Let’s fix one political boondoggle with another!

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#403

Post by presscast »

lyzan wrote: post #376
_khau wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning costs money, especially as an adult. You still need to cover your basic expenses, homeless or not.

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic application…

Time is money, as the saying goes.

When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever).

The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#404

Post by coldtea »

skookumchuck wrote: post #277
coldtea wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know people who profess to be victims, too. I'll tick off the choices they made that got them where they are. Of course, they get angry with me. Nobody wants to hear the truth. Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? When you live life in easy mode is easy to make the right choices. It's also easy to see some people who managed to play in hard mode and win, and extrapolate to eve…

> Who told you poor people are capable of as good choices as richer people? The first step in making better choices is to realize that one is making choices.

The first step in being rational though is to realize that choices are made under certain conditions, and are affected by them, not by some external agent that is totally neutral and impartial to the body's material conditions and social circumstances.

In other words, you "make" decisions only partially, and your choices are shaped by your status in life, before your conscious self can "chose".

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/338/6107/682

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-br...

https://qz.com/964920/data-show-poor-people-make-better-fina...

http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/03/02/anxious-people-decisions...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#405

Post by SolaceQuantum »

ericd wrote: post #230
ddnb wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, nature strives for balance and equality. If the market is as you claim it should be working towards an equilibrium.

Not at all. In nature, the strongest lion has all the mates, while the second strongest has none.

This is actually untrue. The resultant daughter cannot mate with her own father, so she will mate with the next most suitable male. Furthermore, lions function in pride groups with territories. The daughters would need to break off into their own territories eventually, where they would need males. Furthermore, it’s pretty common for brothers to join together to be stronger than the lone strongest male. Your example makes no actual sense in lion society, muchess human society.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#406

Post by lyzan »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #383
lyzan wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic application…

How much of that could you do pulling multiple low-wage jobs and raising child(ren)? If you yourself had a serious chronic illness? If you yourself was raised in poverty so you had to go to schools with high failure rates and no education in which to acquire your own education?

Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't think its the best option, but the scenario first described in question was a homeless man with indefinite "free" time on their hands.

I personally work 2 full time jobs, I'm aware how scarce free time can get. I'm certainly not saying that everyone can do it on their own either. Just that cost is a very weak barrier to knowledge and that I agree you need to learn your way out of poverty.

I'm also a big proponent of basic income exactly for the reasons above, but I think the core idea is well founded. Hard work at a job (or two jobs) doesn't usually get you out of a shitty job, where as learning enough to get a better job does.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#407

Post by baq »

lyzan wrote: post #376
_khau wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning costs money, especially as an adult. You still need to cover your basic expenses, homeless or not.

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic application…

you

1) had a job

2) had access to the internet

now trying learning anything for free online when you don't have money for food because you're jobless and don't have access to the internet because you don't have money for that either.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#408

Post by coldtea »

skookumchuck wrote: post #248
coldtea wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. Choices is not the same as skills. Meritocracy is about merit, not choices.

People choose to acquire skills, or not. It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you.

>People choose to acquire skills, or not.

>It's the whole point of all the education available to Americans, most of it free. Choose it, or not. Heck, you can even get an MIT education for free over the internet. It's up to you.

It's only free if your time is worthless.

Else you have opportunity costs. Which are not just monetary (e.g. needing to work long hours to put food on the table) but human too (e.g. tending to a sick relative or raising your kid).

One could still study after his shift flipping burgers for their "MIT education for free over the internet". But they'd still be left without an actual MIT degree, and even following that free education will be much harder than the average HN commenter whose parents splurged for their education.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#409

Post by coldtea »

ericd wrote: post #254
coldtea wrote: post #176

Americans tried to other "solutions" peddled by politicians, economists, NYT and other pundits. In fact losing jobs and trying those other solutions is how they got here... Those other solutions suck even more. Except for a close to 10% that does as good as ever and even better, and who are the ones proposing those other "solutions"...

Do you have any constructive suggestions to add, or just cynicism?

An observation of the situation is more constructive than such thought-stopping questions, even if it doesn't offer a solution.

Spotting a problem usually precedes solutions anyway.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#410

Post by m_fayer »

hhjinks wrote: post #384
cm2012 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea the kind of mental state, upbringing and understanding of the world Vanessa had at 16. One of the big reasons teen girls get pregnant is a desperate hope to fill the psychological void in their hearts created by neglectful parents.

That does not absolve her of her irresponsibility. 99% of 16-year-olds realize having a kid is a bad idea. She made her bed, and now she sleeps in it. I can empathize with her situation, but I can not empathize with anyone saying she is not herself at least partly responsible.

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society.

Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those who have overcome serious mistakes often become formidable humans. This is one of the bright spots of American culture, lets not throw it away for the cheap thrill of standing in self-righteous judgment.

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