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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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471–480 of 621 posts

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#471
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't your posts here telling the GP how important and useful a specific group for females is despite them explaining why they didn't want want to be a part of it a form of mansplaining?

Why are you assuming that I'm a man? Either way, these kinds of programs are useful for certain people and there are lots of other articles in defense of them. Just because one person didn't want to participate doesn't mean that other people aren't happy that they exist.

But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto ? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they…

You're clearly not part of a minority group.

That's a confusing reaction to what I said and what I'm arguing against.

Edit: For the record, I'm a bisexual Mexican woman. Of course there are times when I perceive people as holding my hand too much and I know it can feel condescending. When I reflect on it, though, no, it's not the same brand of condescension that made my middle school teacher tell me I had no future in math. There's something strange about victimizing yourself out of fear that people are victimizing you.

An internship program for women at Microsoft isn't a ghetto; it can only come from a place of extreme privilege and ignorance to believe so.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#473
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only white people" doesn't mean "no racism". As an Englishman, let me assure you my ancestors managed racism against white Irish people extremely well, and - somewhat ironically - plenty of the less educated people around me today are extremely racist to eastern Europeans (who are supposedly "takin' er jerbs"). Your point is "I don't do racist things, therefore there isn't a problem", which is just not true - there…

Is Irish a race? I'm thinking you mean discrimination.

In case you weren't aware, yes, Irish is an ethnicity, dating back over 9,000 years, making it older than most existing ethnicities. Wikipedia has more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

Being an island, Ireland was quite cut off genetically from the world for quite a long time, allowing a distinct ethnicity to develop. And as you may be aware, "race" isn't a real scientifically valid concept, but the word is used colloquially to refer to ethnicity, which is a scientifically valid concept that can be measured using genetics.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all lives matter" instead, That might have been more effective, even if it isn't as fair or correct. Hard to say, but in the lead up to the the latest US presidential election, there were many movements that I absolutely agreed with that I wish had shut up for just 1 year, because I could seem them fueling resentmen…

>They revolted Hardly[0]. Don't believe the hype. The GOP won using gerrymandering, voter-suppression tactics and clever electoral positioning. Its tools: Voter ID laws and propaganda that deactivated potential voters. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-electi...

The VAST majority of voters have ID, and it's relatively easy to get one. Most people need one to function in society, and in many states you register to vote in the same place you get an ID anyhow. Perhaps you can point to a few examples where more than one or two people were singled out who wanted to vote but were unable to because of the requirement for ID.

It's been shown that voter fraud in several districts was much higher than previously expected or proposed.

I'm against a lot of the propaganda, and frankly the gerrymandering pisses me off to no end. But saying that requiring an ID to vote is excessive is pretty much out of line with the reality of living in society today.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you assuming that I'm a man? Either way, these kinds of programs are useful for certain people and there are lots of other articles in defense of them. Just because one person didn't want to participate doesn't mean that other people aren't happy that they exist.

But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?

Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made?

> "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'"

Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc.

> "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out"

The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program but had fears about bringing it to the attention of their managers or had fears of the repercussions of being one of the few who accepted.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#476
post #318
post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

You are awesome. I couldn't have said it better.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#477
This is a story about misaligned incentives and social status.

Having the special programs lowers the social status of the demographic it targets, because it suggests those people are not good enough to climb the ladder through meritocratic means. At the time they do lower the hurdle for the demographic seeking to enter the industry and/or get ahead, fairly or otherwise. In otherwords, there is a tradeoff between social status and initial growth.

Whether this is a favorable trade depends largely on where you sit. If you're high up already, you would likely prefer the programs to go away since they hurt your status by associating you with the low-status newbies while not giving you much. On the other hand if you've just submitted your resume on BigTechCo's website like a thousand others, it's much more likely to get read by a human if they have some kind of affirmative action program (at the cost of somebody else's resume not getting read by a human, of course). Once you get in, extra programs and mentorship would also be valuble.

Finally, from the company's perspective, it just wants the statistics-illiterate social media diversity mob off its back while deviating as little from its current HR formulas as possible (since they obviously worked well enough to get them big enough to have to worry about this). This means it'll optimize for visibility and photo-ops and photogenic suit-clad female interns in its annual reports.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why single out a given group? Why not offer everyone an "intern buddy"? Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out?

Do you believe decisions like this are randomly made? > "Why not offer everyone an 'intern buddy'" Female interns could have complained about sexual harassment, female interns could have had lower rates of accepting return offers, etc. > "Also, why change from opt-in to opt-out" The program had been going on for a while. They could have had data that suggested that female interns would be interested in such a program…

Do you believe that decisions like this exclude men because women are so much more fragile and need more help than men?

Do you think that men may not need similar help. "intern buddy" doesn't imply a gender role, and maybe should choose to be an inclusive concept instead of exclusive.

The also could have just winged it and made the decision without backing data based on the advice of a gender studies professional.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They revolted Hardly[0]. Don't believe the hype. The GOP won using gerrymandering, voter-suppression tactics and clever electoral positioning. Its tools: Voter ID laws and propaganda that deactivated potential voters. 0. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-electi...

The VAST majority of voters have ID, and it's relatively easy to get one. Most people need one to function in society, and in many states you register to vote in the same place you get an ID anyhow. Perhaps you can point to a few examples where more than one or two people were singled out who wanted to vote but were unable to because of the requirement for ID. It's been shown that voter fraud in several districts was…

Perhaps better questions... do you have ID? do YOU know anyone without ID who is registered to vote?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#480
post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

I can sort of see your point. If you're 2 women out of 40 people chances are you already have enough of a thick skin and drive to find the environment comfortable and not wanting any help.

At the same time I bet that if this was offered to, at least some of, the men I've worked with it would take two weeks until everyone was informed of how important the program was for the organisation. While in reality they would use it to create informal networks within the same to further their own careers. Few of them would ever admit being singled out for any other reason than being an exceptional asset to the people around them. A fact that preferably would be indicated by their salary.

I can definitely see how getting special attention could be annoying. But at some point loudly objecting about something because it's only for women becomes not so flattering for women as a group.

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