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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#461

Post by danlitt »

fedeb95 wrote: post #361
danlitt wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument has a lot of holes in it. Notably, > Planned economies have historically failed. Very much false - the US war and post-war economy was very heavily planned, and was perhaps the most successful economy in history (precisely until it was gutted in the 70s/80s). > best case scenario, create a proportional inflation You give no reason to expect that this inflation will at best be proportional. It is perfect…

Companies are the same that both give salaries to consumers and can up prices. More taxes on companies means higher prices, job cuts, less salary increases. It's not necessary to point out that your quote of the post-war economy is cherry-picking. Plus, after a war it's very easy to get a recovery, especially if you win it. You talk about the US, but look at countries where the state is both heavy on taxes and ineffi…

> look at countries where the state is both heavy on taxes and inefficient

And you accuse me of cherry picking! I have to guess, since I don't know what you regard as "inefficient", but about half of the top-ten-GDP countries are high-tax western european economies. Normalising per capita just leaves oil countries and tax havens, so I'm not sure what metric to use.

> The only thing that can save middle/low class consumers is the hope that the state won't increase taxes faster than we can save money

Do you have any evidence from history to back this up? Saving has not done the lower/middle class very much good in the last 100 years. Is there any period you can point to where living standards improved because people were saving money faster than taxes increased? Taxes were very low in the 1800s - did it enable lower class people to save money?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#462

Post by christkv »

Countries like Norway that has this has lead to a scandal of the artists who decide who gets money, self dealing and giving grants to their friends. You are either in the group and get money or outside and get none.

Get rid of it. State sanctioned art is is probably worse than no art.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#463

Post by whiplash451 »

_heimdall wrote: post #376
whiplash451 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries benefit massively from art. First-grade art attracts wealthy people who pay local taxes and wealthy tourists who contribute to the economic cycle of the country. For some European countries, the numbers are mind-blowing.

What you're describing then would only be a short term chicken and egg problem. If, once established, a thriving art scene generates value by attracting tourism, wealthy individuals who want to patronize the arts, etc then the artists would be able to charge enough to fund themselves and potentially do very well for themselves. In that scenario we'd only need to fully subsidize artists for a short period of time, the…

> we'd only need to fully subsidize artists for a short period of time

That's literally how it works (at least in France). The government sponsors artists early on. Those who make it big don't need the gov sponsoring (and lose eligibility to it). Those who don't continue to receive the sponsoring.

Some artists take a very long time to pan out (some way after their death) so it makes little sense to cut funding to artists on an expiry date basis.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#464

Post by whywhywhywhy »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #408
BryantD wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but let's not lose track of relative costs. The income program provides €33,800,000 a year (2000 participants, €325 a week, 52 weeks in a year). Double that to account for cost of managing the program -- that seems too high to me, but I want to err on the side of caution for this analysis. Some percentage of that money flows right back into the economy, of course. Meanwhile, ignoring windfall corporate taxe…

This program has nothing going for it. That 33 million could have built, let’s say, 66 houses and housed, let’s say, 264 people (66 families of four) for a generation before needing much in the way of maintenance. But no, fuck the working poor , let’s fund artists. Myopic.

Rest of the welfare cost in Ireland is around €68 billion so honestly it could be 100 million and it’s not even a drop in a bucket.

Definitely arguable the artistic output of Ireland is a better investment and more important than housing 66 non-productive families.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#465

Post by danlitt »

roenxi wrote: post #360
danlitt wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that most good writers from history were poor? This is after all the only "horrible experience" a subsidy would alleviate. I don't think that's actually supported by evidence, most great writers I can think of were relatively extremely sheltered (although they often were sensitive to the horrible experiences of others)

> Are you arguing that most good writers from history were poor? No. If I was arguing that I'd have said that. I'm observing that a lot of great writers had pretty miserable lives and I'm arguing that people should aim to live comfortably.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood, I thought you were still on the topic of the subsidy.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#466

Post by appreciatorBus »

ghiculescu wrote: post #221
appreciatorBus wrote: post #137

Since only people with a wealthy family safety net have the wherewithal to call themselves artists, these schemes just end up as a transfer from poor to rich (kids)

Deeply ironic that those who claim to support socialism are so okay with taking from the poor to give to the rich.

A story as old as time, unfortunately.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#467

Post by ryanjshaw »

misja111 wrote: post #431
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> People seem to think only money has value. Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread? What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax pa…

I also wonder why the tax payers who care can’t contribute directly to a fund, and keep government out of entirely.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#468

Post by padjo »

lbreakjai wrote: post #442
padjo wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single well made piece of art can have a profound impact on society for generations. A well laid carpet is... Just a well laid carpet.

None of these 2000 artists will create anything close to a single piece of art having any sort of effect on society. I can guarantee it. I worked in "culture" for a while when I was younger. 90% of it is just disguised unemployment benefits for those that consider it a dirty word barely good enough for the hoi polloi.

You can't guarantee it. Maybe you think you can but you can't.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#469

Post by komali2 »

misja111 wrote: post #431
jimnotgym wrote: post #351

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value. Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be. I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this so…

> People seem to think only money has value. Your either don't understand or don't want to understand what people are commenting about here. Of course nobody thinks that only money has value. If only money had value, why would anybody exchange money for, say, a bread? What many people are wondering about, is whether the value of the money paid by tax payers to artists, equals the value of what they give to the tax pa…

Nobody pays to view a mural, but a lot of people view it, and property values go up as a result. It cost the artist time, effort, and money to make it, and if you hire an artist specifically to make a mural, it's prohibitively expensive for an individual.

Better to amortize the cost across the population and have public works. Like we do for infrastructure. Seems to work just fine.

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