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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#461

Post by ktm5j »

buzzardbait wrote: post #429
bayindirh wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. English is also not my mother tongue, but this translates to "I'm sorry you feel like that, but we don't care or change anything, can I call you to convince you into doing things our way while completely being off the record?" in my mind. This is forceful and rude in my culture, but it's very rude and a no-…

Does it read like a canned response? Yes. But it is not "forceful and rude" by any means and your interpretation is way over the top for what looks like two people from different cultures trying to communicate in a mutually non-native language using words on a screen. Written messages can feel cold even when it's two native English speakers communicating over email or text and it's best to assume good faith until you…

I don't think it even matters how canned it sounds.. it seems like a polite way to move the discussion to a phone call where some real communication can happen. I think that was a perfect response. Forums are not ideal for resolving conflict, especially if language barriers exist.

Re: End of Japanese community

#462

Post by skylurk »

yreg wrote: post #453
cryptonym wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry you feel like this Nope. Start by apologizing for the impact of what YOU did. Contributor of 20y just quit and provide a clear list of what is wrong. "your feelings" and "your struggles" is not respectful. You should be sorry that YOU pushed changes on them in a way that impacted badly their work and made them quit. Thank them for the feedback and try to open a discussion on finding a positive outcome.

But they might not be sorry. Being sorry about how the bot works implies an intention to change/remove it.

Yep, it's pretty clear they are not that sorry, from the tone. They just want to smooth things over. No ACK of making a mistake or changing anything.

Re: End of Japanese community

#463

Post by oldnetguy »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #421
apexalpha wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

As a native English speaker, I don't see it as condescending either. Yes it's a bit "corporate" in tone, but that is not uncommon at all in large human organisations (not just for-profit corporations but also government, NGOs, political orgs, etc). Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. Which is often e…

Native English speaker and worked in IT in multiple corporations for over 30 years and none of this is condescending. The person is trying to reach out and talk.

This is not to dismiss what happened, but to just address the poster who thinks this is condescending.

Re: End of Japanese community

#464

Post by xxs »

Levitz wrote: post #445
xxs wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not necessary true. Regardless the response is totally trash and the timezone (US west coast) likely doesn't help, either Also I'd expect if a person volunteers as translator they'd be pretty decent at speaking.

The only context I can think of in which it wouldn't be true is if someone learned the language through full immersion with no text involved, it's a bizarre situation. There's also no reason as to assume that a volunteer translator is good at speaking, especially in regards to English, which pronunciation is not explicitly stated in its writing (like, say, Spanish). You can't really ascertain how good I am at speakin…

>You can't really ascertain how good I am at speaking, for an obvious example.

That comma, gives you away. The commas (and punctuation in general) in English are rather special in a way they convey the spoken language rather than designated rules.

Edit: As for the full immersion when I was learning English (as kid, 5th grade or so), I recall visualizing the words (letters) in my head while speaking. Certain mistakes like than then, it's it, theirthere etc. are unlikely to happen while writing due to the way language was initially perceived (and b/c I leaned if-then much earlier). Still, esp. with English I'd not consider translating anything unless my spoken version of it was good enough.

Re: End of Japanese community

#465

Post by crote »

latexr wrote: post #407
haunter wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person gives a clear, detailed answer in the post about their problems > "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with" To me that's very condescending, like someone who reads but doesn't understand Borderline AI response And personally offering a call is like a sidestep "lets move this problem out of the public discourse" which is especially funny considering it's about a forum

> And personally offering a call is like a sidestep "lets move this problem out of the public discourse" Maybe. But that’s also assuming the worst from the get go, and that’s no way to settle a dispute. For all we know (which is very little, and thus should offer the benefit of the doubt), offering a call is an admission that text is an awful medium to resolve conflict: It’s time consuming for both parties and a poor…

> Maybe. But that’s also assuming the worst from the get go, and that’s no way to settle a dispute.

Offering a call would've been totally fine - if the rest of the reply hadn't been a borderline-insulting cookie-cutter corporate non-apology. If they start by showing bad intentions, why suddenly assume the best for the phone call?

Re: End of Japanese community

#466

Post by anentropic »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #421
apexalpha wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

As a native English speaker, I don't see it as condescending either. Yes it's a bit "corporate" in tone, but that is not uncommon at all in large human organisations (not just for-profit corporations but also government, NGOs, political orgs, etc). Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. Which is often e…

I dunno man, the "what you're struggling with" part is pretty condescending, perhaps unintentionally

Re: End of Japanese community

#467

Post by clausecker »

v1ne wrote: post #373
eloisant wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, it looks like some of the "bad examples" are precisely the kind of things ML would produce. Others are what non-native speakers would produce (starting with "あなたは" to translate a sentence starting by "you"). I'm sure some translators were using ML before it was integrated, and those guidelines are here in particular to tell them about those problems. Also, ML is now really good to translate between Eur…

> Also, ML is now really good to translate between European languages As somebody who has to regularly bear "German" machine-translated UIs and manuals that originate in English, I can only say: No, it's not. It's atrocious.

Best one was when gedit had the option to syntax highlight for a language named “Los.”

Re: End of Japanese community

#468

Post by dheatov »

stonogo wrote: post #43
thwarted wrote: post #21

What is the logic behind adding machine translation for content that already had a seemingly robust, enthusiastic, and motivated (volunteer?) community maintaining the translations? The "saves money" rationale to deploy LLM/MT automation doesn't make sense when its volunteers are contributing because they want to. This is kind of community and participation destruction wrought by the introduction of LLMs/MT has a ser…

Mozilla has invested heavily in this technology, and whatever project manager is running it needs more checkboxes in the results column of their next request for a raise. In other words, "business alignment."

Less competent PMs are shoving capital A and capital I everywhere in panic mode, getting even more anxious as every failure exposes and deplatforms them even more.

They couldve spent time to understand the problem domain and think more, if theyre not already busy fabricating a resume to sneak into The Actual Big Tech.

Re: End of Japanese community

#469

Post by elric »

sixeyes wrote: post #402
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Maybe "open a communication channel" is what Mozilla should have done BEFORE they turned on this thing. From the article: "It has been working now without our acceptance, without controls, without communications". This person has been doing volunteer work for a long time, attempting to create a helpful environment. Then suddenly, from above a machine is turned on that shits all over that effort. Makes one feel unwelc…

> Maybe "open a communication channel" is what Mozilla should have done BEFORE they turned on this thing.

This right here is the crux of the matter. But it seems to be how Mozilla operates. They frequently show a lack of awareness and consideration towards their long time supporters. I doubt this particular incident will lead to any changes, but I really wish they'd do some introspection...

Re: End of Japanese community

#470

Post by Ekaros »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Wasn't there already a perfectly fine and seemingly fully functional communication channel in place? The one they answered in. I see absolutely zero reason not communicate in it.

On other hand, it seems that early reply had zero effort or attempt to communicate. That is to identify what had happened and gather information and example themselves. But the absolute tiniest bit of effort in I would expect.

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