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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#461

Post by dvdkon »

Krssst wrote: post #410
maxwelljxyz wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the way Chromebooks do things, initially locking down the hardware but allowing you to do whatever if you intentionally know what you're doing (after wiping the device for security reasons). It's a pity that there's all the Google tracking in them that's near impossible to delete (unless you remove Chrome OS).

I wonder if full device wipe would be the solution to "annoying enough that regular users don't do it even when asked by a scam, but power users can and will definitely use it".

That's how bootloader unlocking has worked on Android phones for ages, and I've never heard of it being abused, so I think it's a good model.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#462

Post by wvh »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. It will always come down to that. A handful of tech-savvy users with rooted devices and open-source software will not make a difference to the giant crushing machine that is the system.

And I'm afraid most of us are part of the system, rage-clicking away most of our days, distracted, jaded perhaps, like it historically has always been.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#463

Post by choeger »

The question is: What's ownership? How do I ascertain that I own a device and not, say, the guy who just robbed it from me at knifepoint?

From a government perspective, I think the issue is anonymity. In the long run, governments cannot accept ownership of a thing without being able to attribute usage of that thing. From that perspective, as much as you cannot anonymously own a warehouse, you cannot anonymously own a programmable radio device.

From the corporate perspective, it's even worse: They cannot accept you using a device freely if they license you software or data. They would probably be fine if you could prove to them that you were not violating the terms (or vice versa, they could prove when you did), but that probably has a massive impact on privacy.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#464

Post by franga2000 »

staplers wrote: post #456
wolvesechoes wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However all of these things are not technical You understand it, but even in this thread you have people proposing solutions like switching from traditional banking to bitcoin, stoping using Netflix and starting torrenting again etc. Tech crowd always tries to solve non-technical problems through technical means, and this is why I don't have much hope.

Technical solutions and alternatives can provide enough leverage for the common citizen to force the hand of those in power. It might not fully "solve" the issue, but making it easier to route around will always force those in power to bend somewhat.

In practice the opposite happens - when new technical workarounds are popularized, more technical solutions are found to prevent them and legislation is proposed to mandate them.

Look at Chat Control in the EU: they started with mandating server-side scanning. Nobody liked that so everyone implemented E2EE. Now there's a new law that adds mandatory client-side scanning.

Most of my tech-brained friends are saying "whatever, we'll just compile from source or use alternative means of distribution. But is that becomes popular, what's the next step? I'm fully expecting the EU's to then try to mandate the service providers need to ensure their apps aren't tampered with, which can only be done by locking devices down to official means of distribution and implementing end-to-end cryptographic attestation. Then we truly are out of options.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#465

Post by safety1st »

wvh wrote: post #462
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

What I like about your comment is that it points out that all technical work-arounds are moot if people as a whole are not willing to stand up with pitchforks and torches to defend their freedoms. It will always come down to that. A handful of tech-savvy users with rooted devices and open-source software will not make a difference to the giant crushing machine that is the system. And I'm afraid most of us are part of…

Only competition can provide a solution. We have lost sight of this principle even though all Western democracies are built on the idea of separation of powers, and making it hard for any one faction of elites to gain full control and ruin things for everyone else. Make them fight with each other, let them get a piece of the pie, but never all of it. That's why we have multiple branches of government, multiple parties etc. That's why we have markets with many firms instead of monopolies.

There has never been a utopian past and there will never be a utopian future. The past was riddled with despotism and many things that the average man or woman today would consider horrific. The basic principle of democratic society is to prevent those things from recurring by pitting elite factions against each other. Similarly business elites who wield high technology to gain their wealth must also compete and if there is any sign of them cooperating too closely for too long, we need to break them up or shut them down.

When Apple and Google agree, cooperate, and adopt the same policies - we are all doomed. It must never happen and we must furthermore break them up if they try, which they are now doing.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#466

Post by the_other »

staplers wrote: post #456
wolvesechoes wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However all of these things are not technical You understand it, but even in this thread you have people proposing solutions like switching from traditional banking to bitcoin, stoping using Netflix and starting torrenting again etc. Tech crowd always tries to solve non-technical problems through technical means, and this is why I don't have much hope.

Technical solutions and alternatives can provide enough leverage for the common citizen to force the hand of those in power. It might not fully "solve" the issue, but making it easier to route around will always force those in power to bend somewhat.

I'm unconvinced. Look at the current wave of attacks on privacy-focused chat + file sharing. The niche tools and workarounds are getting vilified and used as _reasons_ for more elite control.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#467

Post by raxxorraxor »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

It is of high financial interest of Netflix. I killed my subscription because they couldn't support my sensibly configured browser.

I often recommend people to kill their subscription as well because of this fact. Netflix just isn't oriented to improve their service for their users and it shows.

It won't hit any of their KPI or metrics, but their shitty behavior has a real effect. That said, most other alternatives suck as well. Killed Paramount almost immediately, can't remember why I left Disney. I think there were similar issues.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#468

Post by K0nserv »

tern wrote: post #86
divan wrote: post #31

> It should be possible to run Android on an iPhone and manufacturers should be required by law to provide enough technical support and documentation to make the development of new operating systems possible As someone who enjoyed Linux phones like the Nokia N900/950 and would love to see those hacker-spirited devices again, statements like this sound more than naïve to me. I can acknowledge my own interests here (ha…

Not to mention, it's an authoritarian attitude, talking about forcing companies to support arbitrary software stacks

Op here: The point I'm trying to make in the piece is that this is less authoritarian than the common suggestion that Apple and Google be forced to change how iOS and Android works. The piece is meant to be a juxtaposition to that idea.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#470

Post by the_other »

SilverElfin wrote: post #108
idle_zealot wrote: post #4

This makes the point that the real battle we should be fighting is not for control of Android/iOS, but the ability to run other operating systems on phones. That would be great, but as the author acknowledges, building those alternatives is basically impossible. Even assuming that building a solid alternative is feasible, though, I don't think their point stands. Generally I'm not keen on legislatively forcing a deve…

> Google and Apple have more power than most nations. Yep. They control our information - how we make it, what we are allowed to find, and what we can say. And they are large enough to not face real competition. So let’s treat them like the state owned corporations they are and regulate heavily. Smaller companies can be left unregulated. But not companies worth 500 billion or more.

> So let’s treat them like the state owned corporations

If they were state owned, we could vote for how the profits get used and we would have larger budgets for healthcare and education.

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