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Emergency SOS via satellite

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Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#461

Post by lxgr »

dont__panic wrote: post #460
lxgr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each device has a test mode that will communicate with the SARSAT satellite network without sending an alert. That explanation is factually incorrect, then. There currently is no "test" flag, nor is there the required infrastructure to check if your test alert went through: https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emergency_beacon-testing/ So this "self-test" feature can't be communicating with actual satellites. No idea what i…

Perhaps the emergency communication with satellites is a handshake, and the "test" mode for the beacons simply doesn't complete the handshake?

Possibly (the page I linked even mentions a "test" type of signal), but given that there is no return link for most PLBs and no "list of recent successfully received test transmissions" online, I don't understand how one would actually verify success.

This policy document mentions that the "self-test" feature actually does not communicate with satellites at all, and also mentions a "test frame" that is discarded by satellites, as well as a "test protocol" that is forwarded by satellites, but discarded by the ground segment: https://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/wp-content/uploads/POL-MCC-051-v...

So it seems like both the "self-test" and the "test frame" don't tell you a lot about how well your beacon would work in case of an actual emergency (unless you have equipment that can receive and interpret that signal), and live testing involves a lot of paperwork.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#462

Post by Shocka1 »

COGlory wrote: post #378
ingalls wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, super glad to hear your friends are out of the field safe. Want to address one point however: "The SOS button is very expensive. Extremely expensive" In my experience on multiple SAR teams (Search and Rescue), this is almost never the case in North America. Search and Rescue is one of the few services that is almost uniformly free [1]. Thousands and thousands of volunteer hours every year keep it that way.…

Thanks for sharing. I'm relatively new to back country adventures (moved here from RI in 2018), and have heard from peers stories about bankrupting rescues. Glad to know that is not necessarily the case. I can say I was completely out of my comfort zone when two tried to walk out, that turned into the most stressful day of our lives. I think everyone thought they were going to die: the two walking out from hypothermi…

As a big-time hunter myself, I'm glad you got them all out. It sounds like the ones that stayed back were well prepared. Surprise snowfall is no joke and can catch out even the best mountaineers. Countless day hikers have lost their lives in smaller mountains like the Adirondacks in Upstate NY, let alone the big mountains in the Western US. Thankfully it's never happened to me, but I personally never venture into the mountains without the ability to survive for weeks if needed.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#463

Post by nradov »

MarkMarine wrote: post #223
ghostpepper wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"perdix or tables" those are starkly different options. do you know a lot of people who still dive with tables?

Yeah, like everyone that dives with GUE, I plan my dives and dive tables and a bottom timer.

Many GUE divers do use dive computers. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't rely on the computer for anything safety critical.

Most dive computers make it difficult or impossible to do dive planning for more complex scenarios. For example, the Garmin Descent Mk2 has a Plan Dive activity profile. But it only supports square profile dives, doesn't properly handle travel gas, and doesn't generate contingency plans for loss of deco gas. So we have to do dive planning with other software that can generate tables.

https://youtu.be/SHva-wG7w0Q

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/GUID-120241CE-9583-4...

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#464

Post by Kwpolska »

PierceJoy wrote: post #429
kenhwang wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a bunch of idiotic friends that always find themselves needing SAR in North America. The rule of thumb within the group that has generally held true is: if you're on federal lands it's fully free, but if you're in resort, city, or state jurisdiction they'll absolutely try to claw back the costs. The SAR might be technically "free", but they'll categorize as many things under "medical emergency" as pos…

You might want to change North America to just America. In Canada, SAR is free no matter where you are. Clawing back costs isn't a thing here.

The country you’re thinking of is called United States.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#466

Post by PierceJoy »

Kwpolska wrote: post #464
PierceJoy wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to change North America to just America. In Canada, SAR is free no matter where you are. Clawing back costs isn't a thing here.

The country you’re thinking of is called United States.

It's incredibly common to refer to the US as America.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#467

Post by tlavoie »

PierceJoy wrote: post #458
kenhwang wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free as long as you didn't sign an agreement saying you'd be responsible for the cost of SAR. Such as breaking resort rules by going out of bounds[1]. It's really the same as the US (other than our states and cities acting more like corporations), it comes down to who gets dispatched: if it's the government you're fine, but oftentimes if you're near a resort, it comes down to whether dispatch thinks the resort staff,…

Your link doesn’t really support your claim. It was a “fine” from a private resort, that by their own account is entirely unenforceable[1]. Essentially a request for a donation to SAR. In practise, SAR is free in Canada no matter where you are. There are hundreds and hundreds of SAR calls in BC per year, and not a single person rescued has been required to pay a cent. Many of them do make donations though as a token…

Related, there is an excellent short (5-episode) series following Vancouver's North Shore Rescue. https://www.knowledge.ca/program/search-and-rescue-north-sho...

It certainly puts their efforts into perspective, including how easily people can run into trouble unprepared.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#468

Post by throwawaylinux »

kenhwang wrote: post #456
throwawaylinux wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you said this: > The SAR might be technically "free", but they'll categorize as many things under "medical emergency" as possible and throw the book of fines at you. And then seemed to imply that's what they did when someone just got lost. Okay they will do it regardless if you have insurance or not, still fraud isn't it?

There's generally a medical component to SAR. If you don't need medical attention or weren't at risk of needing medical attention, what's the rush? Search is trivial if you're calling in help yourself since just about any device that can call for help will communicate where you are. Gets more complicated for a wide area search called in by someone else though, because that is expensive; but then the target's medical…

> There's generally a medical component to SAR. If you don't need medical attention or weren't at risk of needing medical attention, what's the rush?

"At risk of needing medical attention", e.g., dying of thirst of exposure after a few days when you're lost, is not a medical emergency though. This isn't even some esoteric legalize it's just obvious common sense. You were talking about things like just getting lost, and SAR trying to file as much as they possibly can under "medical emergency". Definitely sounds like fraud.

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#469

Post by int_19h »

ingalls wrote: post #290
dave78 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Search and Rescue is one of the few services that is almost uniformly free [1]. I wonder if this will remain true once everyone with an iPhone has access to it. The increase in volume could easily overwhelm the volunteers, no?

The next couple years will give us more concrete numbers, but based on my personal experience, I doubt this will change call volume significantly. We're mostly seeing dramatically increased call volume due to more people being involved in backcountry recreation and less so due to increased comms coverage through cell or satellite devices. While there is the argument that these devices give increased peace of mind tha…

Out of curiosity, do you find it at all useful when people who call in SAR have some kind of handheld radio transceiver? (I'm lumping everything here - FRS/GMRS, MURS, ham sets etc).

Re: Emergency SOS via satellite

#470

Post by int_19h »

jjav wrote: post #440
ghaff wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the info. Although, in general, I assume a device that allows you to have two-way communications with SAR is preferable even if a PLB might have been better in this ultimately fatal situation.

Yes, two-way communication is a huge benefit since you can explain the problem and the responders can give advice in addition to ETAs. However, a device like the Garmin inReach requires an active subscription for the SOS to work. If there's a glitch with your credit card and the service becomes inactive while you're on travels, it might not work. Another difference is that an inReach SOS message goes to the Garmin-ru…

My understanding is that SARSAT is the only option that has satellites in orbits above LEO, and thus generally better coverage. So if it's down to one thing only, I'd pick the PLB just on the basis that, in a serious emergency, it's more important for help to come at all.
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