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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#461

Post by gambiting »

tialaramex wrote: post #444
gambiting wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think even the most fundamental left leaning people are against sending illegal immigrants away - the problem is that UK is choosing to send people away to Rwanda, basically telling them that it's a safe African country, good luck there. Ministers have confirmed that yeah, it's "possible" that for instance Ukrainian refugees could be sent there if they didn't follow the right procedures and are deemed "illega…

The UK can't send asylum seekers to Australia because Australia is a sovereign entity and wouldn't accept them. Indeed Australia already has anti-asylum policies locally, and these influenced the model for the UK's decision.

Well of course, it was a tongue in cheek comment - that UK would probably send people to Australia, just like it used to. I'm not saying that it's possible, realistic, or even a good idea in the first place.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#462

Post by tapeloop »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

they didn't say that it was a once in a generation vote (whatever that means), they said it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to make a difference. The actual difference in meaning between the two should be clear. The terms of the actual agreement signed by all parties agreed legally that there was nothing in it to preclude a further referendum, so even if by some chance your interpretation is what was meant then they have no actual power to enforce it.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#463

Post by enriquto »

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them.

As a Catalan that wants his country to be independent: I'd cry tears of joy if our western neighbors were half as nice as you the English are. I was not pro-indy before I got to know first-hand the callousness of even moderate spaniard unionists.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#464

Post by randomsearch »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #217

Scotland is assuming the EU would want them, the only reason they where in Europe previously is because they where part of the UK and came as a package deal, without the rest of the UK, what does Scotland have? it's silly of them and it's all lead by the SNP who only care about independence at all costs, they ignore literally everything else and try and twist it into an independence issue. SNP is causing Scotland far…

> Scotland is assuming the EU would want them

Why on earth wouldn't they want an english-speaking nation with great natural resources and a political establishment that is generally cooperative and open? Scotland has historically had much greater ties with Europeans than England.

> what does Scotland have?

Gas, oil (rather handy still), agriculture - forestry, fisheries etc., finance, universities, geopolitical advantages.

> Scotland doesn't need independence, it needs a better government for the whole of the UK, but with the SNP in power in Scotland, it makes it hard for the UK to have any other government but the tories.

Another way of phrasing this is: Scotland will never get the government it wants unless it leaves the UK.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#465

Post by scott_w »

88 wrote: post #431
scott_w wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s normal for the high court to side with the government in these cases only for them to be overturned on appeal. That’s not my opinion, that’s the experience of immigration lawyers. So yes, the policy is unlawful _in fact_ but the legal process needs to catch up to that.

Except the Supreme Court have said they will not consider an appeal. So it is not illegal.

They’re not ruling on legality, they’re refusing to grant injunctions on the flights.

This doesn’t mean they’re legal, it means the courts won’t stop those individuals from being deported while the legal case for the policy is being argued. The decision to grant, or not, an injunction is not in itself a judgement on the underlying policy. The court did the former, not the latter.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#466

Post by brigandish »

mvc wrote: post #397
brigandish wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are allowed to change their opinion Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs . > If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held? > Holding up…

> Yes, you must forgive me for thinking that principles and promises are worth sticking to. I should be as cynical as politicians and simply go by what is convenient, right? So principled that you are happy to stick with a leader who when asked about parties that went on in his house, confidently stated that no parties had taken place.

I don't support Boris Johnson, I'm not a Tory, I don't care about the stupid parties, cake and beer by anyone and I'd like to know why you're claiming the opposite?

Please, I'd like to know why you felt the need to write a completely false comment.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#467

Post by Emma_Goldman »

randomsearch wrote: post #440
Emma_Goldman wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland's implied deficit in 2020-21 was £36.3bn, or 22.4% of GDP. [1] When the SNP set up the Sustainable Growth Commission before the last independence vote it advised that public sector cuts would be necessary to reduce the country's deficit to sustainable levels. [2] You can't just make things up because you wish it was so. It is not sensible. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/18/scotland-soa... […

> Scotland's implied deficit in 2020-21 was £36.3bn, or 22.4% of GDP. [1] How has the price of oil changed since then? Cherry picking much?

Scotland's deficit is persistent. Between 2014-15 and 2019-20 it averaged 9.2%, compared to 3.2% for the UK as a whole. [1]

Infamously, the SNP's envisioned post-independence budget was based on their forecast for annual oil and gas revenues: £10bn. In reality they have averaged an order of magnitude less: £1bn.

Oil and gas are volatile commodities so there will be year-to-year fluctuations but the secular trend is clearly downwards. The best wells have run dry, and the UK is committed to net zero by 2050 and Scotland to net zero by 2045.

[1] https://www.economicsobservatory.com/what-might-the-public-f...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#468

Post by carnitine »

aembleton wrote: post #196
manmal wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not be appealing for the English financial sector to move to Scotland if it’s part of the EU?

Haven't they already moved to Dublin?

No, not even remotely. London is second only to New York for finance.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#469

Post by jaywalk »

true_religion wrote: post #402
gambiting wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think even the most fundamental left leaning people are against sending illegal immigrants away - the problem is that UK is choosing to send people away to Rwanda, basically telling them that it's a safe African country, good luck there. Ministers have confirmed that yeah, it's "possible" that for instance Ukrainian refugees could be sent there if they didn't follow the right procedures and are deemed "illega…

What’s wrong with Rwanda? From the point of view of Africans, we see this as a Rwanda led initiative to take care of refugees in a country that is safe, and in an environment that is closer to their homelands. Although in the past Rwanda has had is troubles but … so did Ireland and the UK on different scale. Rwanda of today is a different place, and the current president has long experience in handling refugee situat…

I have literally never heard an African perspective on this before your comment. Thank you for this, it's very enlightening!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#470

Post by dgb23 »

niyaven wrote: post #288
dgb23 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralization is a key to robustness. I can't speak for this particular case. But generally I think it is desirable to have. Real sustainable progress often happens in the small and builds bottom up. People in different regions have different needs and ways of doing things. Distributed power leads to less exploitation.

You obviously haven't been to Belgium, which has 6 governments (and prime ministers) for a country that has the size of 1/10th of Italy. Decentralization has benefits, yes, but as for everything there are limits to it.

There's a cost, and it is often annoying and widely discussed, even joked about in highly federal countries. But there's benefits that are quite apparent I think.
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