When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided" • Hacker News Board

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#461

Post by mananaysiempre » Sat, May 07, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

thaway2839 wrote: post #290

ethbr0 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When CMD is your benchmark... (In all fairness, PowerShell has a lot of good ideas)

I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming. Some of Microsoft's best outputs comes from those teams/folks. It could just be a coincidence/confirmation bias, so I wonder if there's actually something to that.

> I get the feeling that there's a bunch of people working for, or being paid by, Microsoft who really love functional programming.

Simon Peyton Jones, Simon Marlow, Edward Kmett, Conal Elliott, and I’m sure a lot of other people with fundamental contributions to the Haskell ecosystem who I can’t remember offhand all work or previously worked at Microsoft Research, so that part is just straightforwardly true.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#462

Post by mananaysiempre » Sat, May 07, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

Longhanks wrote: post #93

miiiiiike wrote: post #37

Issue: Feeling bad after interaction with OSS developer at . Steps to reproduce: 1) Report a bug. 2) Get called dumb by developers at . 3) Demonstrate that it is, in fact, a bug with examples, test cases, and offer a potential fix/PR. 4) Hear that it’s being “handled internally”. 5) Wait for the blog post re-iterating what they called dumb, talking about how great the team is that fixed it, and see your demonstration…

And the Windows Terminal team reeks of this. There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for *years*, as if the whole world of CLI was waiting for their savior.

> There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for years

It doesn’t really read like that for me, more of a look at this cool thing we made with an undercurrent of fucking finally, and that seems entirely fair.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#463

Post by samhw » Sat, May 07, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

Nexxxeh wrote: post #349

johnwheeler wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows you’re supposed to denote sarcasm with .

There's a (renewed?) push from Autistic/Ally TikTok users to use Tone Tags / Tone Indicators, especially when communicating with ND people. https://tonetags.carrd.co/#masterlist A number of creators, especially cosplayers, have recently shared posts encouraging their use. I don't know how widespread it is, because TikTok and IG both tend to feed you content relating to your niches. So I may be seeing a disproportiona…

Gosh this seems like a brilliantly effective next step in the TikTokers’ campaign to drain life of any and all colour and playfulness and spontaneity. As an autistic person, I’d cast my vote for ‘occasionally misunderstand things’ over ‘have ridiculous sarcasm warnings on everything so that you can’t actually be sarcastic, or anything but grimly solemn and annoyingly earnest 100% of the time’.

(Also, Lord save me from people who call themselves “allies”. It’s just called being a normal decent person, but that doesn’t let you brag about it or use autistic/black/etc people as fashion accessories, so I s’pose that’s off the menu..)

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#464

Post by dmitriid » Sat, May 07, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #177

lelandfe wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was your code they were talking about, you may feel differently. Blunt, hyperbolic statements like "massively overcomplicated" can feel like a shot across the bow when someone is talking about code you wrote. Kindness and gentleness go a long way in OSS.

Context: they are making a terminal emulator. Something we've been doing for close to 60 years already. At the time of this writing their repo has over 1400 open issues. At the time of the "kerfuffle" their code couldn't output more than 10 (or was it 40?) characters per second to the screen on what is essentially a supercomputer. And they claimed it required "a doctoral research into performance" to make it better.…

There's more evidence their code is over complicated: https://twitter.com/stewartlynch8/status/1522512601443454976

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#465

Post by ukverwwrttyv » Sat, May 07, 2022, 9:55 PM UTC

Both sides need better communication. They are like oil and water in boiling degrees

Credit where it's due, I think Windows Terminal's team did try to extend an apology. (Sincere or not, what is the extent that you deem sincere enough)

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10462#issuecomm...

> We certainly handled the original issue poorly, and we're trying to do better.

> We may not have taken the feedback seriously to begin with, but if it appears to have been completely dismissed then I am sorry.

> Personally I'd like to also welcome @ cmuratori and @ mmozeiko back to give any comments if they wish to do so. Of course it'd be entirely understandable if they don't.

Minimised comment https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10462#issuecomm...

> We‘re quite aware about the code and are extremely happy about what was created there. I mean it seriously: It sets a great goal for us to strive for. Unfortunately the code is intentionally GPLv2 licensed and we‘ll honor this wish entirely. As such no one at Microsoft will ever look at either of the links.

Claims that they tried to communicate with Casey:

> I‘ve talked with the author before and they made it abundantly clear they don’t wish to ever speak with us again. They‘re entirely welcome to return and take part in this project‘s discourse of course… I‘d be delighted if that was the case!

--

What do everyone think of this?

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#466

Post by Nexxxeh » Sat, May 07, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

samhw wrote: post #463

Nexxxeh wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a (renewed?) push from Autistic/Ally TikTok users to use Tone Tags / Tone Indicators, especially when communicating with ND people. https://tonetags.carrd.co/#masterlist A number of creators, especially cosplayers, have recently shared posts encouraging their use. I don't know how widespread it is, because TikTok and IG both tend to feed you content relating to your niches. So I may be seeing a disproportiona…

Gosh this seems like a brilliantly effective next step in the TikTokers’ campaign to drain life of any and all colour and playfulness and spontaneity. As an autistic person, I’d cast my vote for ‘occasionally misunderstand things’ over ‘have ridiculous sarcasm warnings on everything so that you can’t actually be sarcastic, or anything but grimly solemn and annoyingly earnest 100% of the time’. (Also, Lord save me fro…

I think it's about writing for one's audience, and being inclusive.

I've got autistic friends who struggle with open questions. They strongly dislike opening greetings without quickly taking the conversation somewhere.

They often miss stuff that's implied in conversation. It has to be explicitly stated.

They suck at gauging tone and intent in written language. They worry about the feelings and opinions of others. It can be upsetting and stressful for them.

But they're smart, capable, fun, artistic and creative, kind, thoughtful and inclusive.

They are certainly not lacking in colour or playfulness. (Possibly lacking in spontaneity to a degree, but I don't think that's a deal-breaker.)

And it's great that you're comfortable enough with misunderstanding things for it to be preferable to an alternative.

I choose to change my language to suit them. If using /s and /nbh or whatever helps them to correctly parse what I write, and assists in me communicating, why would I choose not to do that?

When using spoken language, I denote sarcasm through tone of voice. Does that render it pointless? If not, why would using /s?

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#467

Post by _huayra_ » Sun, May 08, 2022, 3:06 AM UTC

TIPSIO wrote: post #158

lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

This is way above my pay grade. Just don’t take anything personal. Being defensive / know best is in this industry everywhere at all levels and organizations. Being humble in general is hard, being humble in code reviews is harder, being humble to Internet comments in any forum… sometimes impossible. Then repeat that with two super genius experts - eek. You find everyone is usually trying their best if you ever have…

Most people are just performing the narrative that they use to shape their life in front of you (and the rest of the world). When someone comes at you overwhelmed with a disempowering emotion (e.g. locked up by anger, envy, snark, etc), how they behave has very little to do with who you are or what you did.

The first time this really hit home with me was when I was dating a girl who laughed at inappropriate times (e.g. it was extremely amusing to her how much my ski boots would squish my feet the first few days of the season). It was only after I broke up with her (for unrelated reasons) and saw her go through her own struggles that I learned that her family of origin was horrible and there was no one to comfort her when she would get hurt. Laughing was her way of dealing with the emotions of physical injury because she didn't know how to soothe herself or others.

Anyone who has the misfortune of having a friend or family member get ensnarled by the Qovid / Trump / populist zeitgeist can see that most of these people have gone through immense emotional suffering (often involving betrayal by a government agency, big business, or spouse), and are just bereft of the self awareness to understand what is going on with their emotions.

So yes, don't take anything personal. It almost never is.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#468

Post by bfgoodrich » Sun, May 08, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #458

bfgoodrich wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 The original discussion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the Casey individual approaches it. At all. And yes it is simple . If your basic text terminal gets 30 FPS on modern hardware (or worse), you have started with a bad foundation. That is just gross. The NYT commentary is a bit hilarious as you see that claim on here daily, repeatedly.

nothing wrong? > " Can you be more specific here about what you are talking about? While text output can be "hard", for some not particularly hard definition of "hard" " Insulting, dismissive, rude. > " to me that a great deal of improvement could be made to the performance of the product if one were so inclined. " After someone said they'd been working on improving performance for 2 years and engaging in good faith…

No post body was provided.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#469

Post by woojoo666 » Sun, May 08, 2022, 12:23 PM UTC

jbverschoor wrote: post #430

woojoo666 wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how I interpretted the github thread and blog post. It seemed like the MS team was saying "yes we know this is one way to solve it, but it's incredibly difficult", and one year later they post "we finally did it and this is how difficult it was". As the author of the blog post mentioned here, the sentence about how "trivial" it was, was actually sarcasm, and the rest of the blog post highlights the technic…

That's not how interpreted it.. there's way too much elitism in tech. And also aggregations about how easy or difficult things are. "AI will solve things" -> they have no clue, and just trust it's gonna work itself. "It's difficult to add a field to that form, it'll take 2 weeks" -> usually bs. I read the thread, and I fully agree that it should be a weekend work. So yeah, it's just other devs mismanaging their time,…

I find it weird that github user cmuratori is willing to write in so much detail about how to do it and how it's only a weekend of work, but doesn't submit a pull request themself. To me, it's rather easy to make requests and speculate about different approaches, but actually implementing the solution can be much more expensive.

Not to mention, as some of the other HackerNews threads mention [1], they very well could have already gotten cmuratori's idea from another person (in fact they say they already heard it from alacritty), and it could have already been an idea in consideration but they hadn't fully explored it yet because they chose a different path to try first. The github thread you linked seems to indicate the same thing. For cmuratori to just write a few github comments and then demand credit seems a bit much.

Also note that the blog post has been updated to mention cmuratori, although that could just be to appease the outcry.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31287644

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#470

Post by jodrellblank » Sun, May 08, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

bfgoodrich wrote: post #250

KennyBlanken wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362 The original discussion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the Casey individual approaches it. At all. And yes it is simple . If your basic text terminal gets 30 FPS on modern hardware (or worse), you have started with a bad foundation. That is just gross. The NYT commentary is a bit hilarious as you see that claim on here daily, repeatedly.

Your reply says it’s not rude it’s factual, and you defend it as factual by saying easy/hard is subjective with the skill of the developer (i.e. not factual), and you defend that it’s not rude by insulting the dev skills and calling them mediocre and laughable? And you don’t address the bit where he storms off in a huff when much less is said back to him?

Even if I agree it’s factually easy, walking up to someone and saying “walking is easy if you’re not a cripple, am I missing something?” is rude if the person is disabled and even more rude if they aren’t. “But they’re crippled! Fact!” doesn’t make it not-rude behaviour. He isn’t Linus Torvalds and even LT insulted devs on behalf of userland and good code and not just to make himself feel superior. And doesn’t have an eggshell thin skin.