When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided" • Hacker News Board

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#131

Post by philipwhiuk » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #107

ddalex wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except to note that it was not an apology at all. Ctrl-F there doesn't show a single "sorry" in the text. Or "Casey" for that matter. Why is it so difficult to say: "Casey, we are sorry, you were right and we were mistaken.". Instead there is a nebulous ~extended a branch to community and hope to accept our apology~ (paraphrasing) without offering an apology in the first place.

https://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Genuine-Apology 1. Know what you did wrong: > When confronted with being told our rendering pipeline had terrible performance, we turned inward. [...] We were wrong. 2. Keep it simple, being careful not to start up a fight, a disagreement, or open up the situation for further discussion or recriminations. Subjective. You decide. 3. Be prepared to meet resistance. They are here meeting t…

> Remind the person

They don't even mention the person. Pretty hard to argue they covered this.

I assume WikiHow thought it was too obvious that you had to actually send it to / mention the person you were actually apologising to.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#132

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

Longhanks wrote: post #93

miiiiiike wrote: post #37

Issue: Feeling bad after interaction with OSS developer at . Steps to reproduce: 1) Report a bug. 2) Get called dumb by developers at . 3) Demonstrate that it is, in fact, a bug with examples, test cases, and offer a potential fix/PR. 4) Hear that it’s being “handled internally”. 5) Wait for the blog post re-iterating what they called dumb, talking about how great the team is that fixed it, and see your demonstration…

And the Windows Terminal team reeks of this. There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for *years*, as if the whole world of CLI was waiting for their savior.

When CMD is your benchmark...

(In all fairness, PowerShell has a lot of good ideas)

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#133

Post by nsxwolf » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

This response, to me anyway, is worse than no response at all.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#134

Post by Humdeee » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

candiddevmike wrote: post #56

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

> We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. This response shows how little you value users feedback (and how unafraid of them you are). Probably should leave this kind of thing to your developer relations team...

Yep, that part just seemed so condescendingly dismissive.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#135

Post by dmitriid » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #15

tubs wrote: post #5

Pretty sure the "trivial" in the blog post is sarcastic, or at least slightly self depracating.

The "trivial" solution doesn't work. And they thus had to do the non -trivial thing and write their own custom text renderer. If I'm right in my reading, the author of the tweet is wrong to complain about them saying it's "trivial," because they never did.

A custom text renderer was exactly the trivial solution suggested and demonstrated to them when they claimed it was extremely hard and required a doctoral research.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#136

Post by zamalek » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

philipwhiuk wrote: post #131

zamalek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Genuine-Apology 1. Know what you did wrong: > When confronted with being told our rendering pipeline had terrible performance, we turned inward. [...] We were wrong. 2. Keep it simple, being careful not to start up a fight, a disagreement, or open up the situation for further discussion or recriminations. Subjective. You decide. 3. Be prepared to meet resistance. They are here meeting t…

> Remind the person They don't even mention the person. Pretty hard to argue they covered this. I assume WikiHow thought it was too obvious that you had to actually send it to / mention the person you were actually apologising to.

> almost perfect apology

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#137

Post by jackbravo » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

ghusbands wrote: post #53

DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

That's not an apology, as written. You say you did something wrong and say "we hope that you will accept our apology", having not actually given one. Maybe English isn't your first language, and so you don't know the difference between "accept our apologies" (which is a formal/distant apology) and "accept our apology" (which refers to a previous apology). Also, good apologies come with admission of fault and steps yo…

I did see admission of fault:

> We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#138

Post by generalk » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

doix wrote: post #42

TrueTom wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you have posted the wrong link because there isn't really an apology?

> We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes. What more really needs to be said? Feels like one of those times where if everyone just sat around at a pub with a beer…

The quoted text is vague and non-directional, whereas the biting response to the GitHub issue screenshot posted in TFA are incredibly directed. I'm new to all of this, and so I dunno if the author was being catty and insulting when making their suggestions, but the responses posted certainly are.

I tell my kids this all the time. An apology has several parts:

1. In clear terms, admit fault. "I responded to a comment with some vitriol, and at the time that seemed okay but looking back that was insulting and rude, and not how I want to address our community members. This is true in any case, but doubly so when the original commenter turns out to have provided good advice that I was ignoring." 2. Express remorse. "I'm sorry. I regret letting my passions get the better of me and hope I didn't damage any relationships." 3. Offer to remediate. "As you can see, we're embarking on doing exactly the work that $AUTHOR suggested, and I'd like make sure they receive appropriate credit. If it helps, I'll link to the original thread and this apology." 3. Do better.

The quotes above are just examples off the top, I have no horse in this particular race, but I do have a lot of experience eating crow and having to apologize for being an ass to someone who later turned out to be right.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#139

Post by lhecker » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know!

English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex.

I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>2000 FPS). In other words, in most situations Casey's suggestion doesn't help much, but it does address his termbench issue. At the time we assumed we were using the API incorrectly, after all Direct2D already had everything Casey suggested we should implement and it ran very fast outside of termbench. The new solution is largely identical to regular Direct2D with the only major difference being that ClearType/Grayscale gamma-correction is run on the GPU instead.

Casey's suggestion wasn't unique to me, as a significant number of other terminals do it exactly that way in OpenGl, something I was quite familiar with already. Originally I credited alacritty in the blog, because that's how I knew how to do it, but I removed it to keep the article as succinct as possible.

Update: I'm very sorry for publishing the blog post without giving proper credit where it is due, and it's been updated since. I'm sorry for my continued, overly defensive behavior.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#140

Post by miiiiiike » Fri, May 06, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

Longhanks wrote: post #93

miiiiiike wrote: post #37

Issue: Feeling bad after interaction with OSS developer at . Steps to reproduce: 1) Report a bug. 2) Get called dumb by developers at . 3) Demonstrate that it is, in fact, a bug with examples, test cases, and offer a potential fix/PR. 4) Hear that it’s being “handled internally”. 5) Wait for the blog post re-iterating what they called dumb, talking about how great the team is that fixed it, and see your demonstration…

And the Windows Terminal team reeks of this. There's so many blog posts saying look, we're so smart because they're reimplementing something both Linux and macOS had for *years*, as if the whole world of CLI was waiting for their savior.

I can’t speak to that. I’ve pretty much Linux only since 1999, but, of the times I’ve used PowerShell, I’ve like it.