More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#461

Post by AlchemistCamp » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #108

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing , right? America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of course true to some extent, but they really put it on a pedestal there. Com…

> I paid a total of $20k over five years which I easily covered with internships/summer jobs.

You paid with five years of your life. Even if college were "free", it still wouldn't be the optimal thing for everyone to do. It is the best choice for some, but unfortunately those who make other choices are often looked down upon in much of the world unless they're an outlier success.

The cost of US schools is a massive problem, but the increasing assumption that everyone needs to take multiple years out of what could be the most productive phase of their life to engage in a tracked cookie-cutter experience is an even bigger problem.

Schooling and education aren't the same thing and the first doesn't always lead to much of the second.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#462

Post by hbn » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

muaytimbo wrote: post #439

Easy explanation, who wants to pay for a masked/zoom college experience? Add jab requirements every couple months, “covid” surveillance and contact tracing, and intentionally minimized social activities/opportunities and why would anyone pay 50k/yr for that?

I also think millennials were the sacrificial generation who were forced to find out the hard way that college isn't the magical path to a great, well-paying career like they were promised. They did everything right, exactly as the generation before them who it worked for. They got expensive degrees, sunk themselves into crippling debt right as they were entering adulthood, only to find out most of the degrees they were sold are worthless. The new generation that's supposed to be entering college now can clearly see how badly millennials got scammed, why would they do the same thing as them? Not to mention the absolutely deranged politics that are taking place in academic institutions these days.

The current sales pitch of college is "give us tens of thousands of dollars so you can watch some online classes with information you could find freely on the internet, we'll occasionally get you to write essays about how you were born inherently toxic as a person, and then at the end we give you a piece of paper that won't get you a job." No shit, attendance is going down.

Unless you have a very specific plan for a career you want to get into, and you know it's a job that would actually be worth the money spent (like a computer science degree so you can get into a software career), it's just such an obviously horrible deal.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#463

Post by lapsedacademic » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

ChicagoDave wrote: post #28

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

Texas Tech is a fantastic school. If he chooses to go there and majors in a STEM field, he'll have a bright future.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#464

Post by kristjansson » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

stocknoob wrote: post #431

granshaw wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a college degree. Not sure how to fix that

Yep. The GP thinks parents consider their child being a forklift driver vs teacher as equivalent outcomes if they pay the same?

Income over the next 4 quarters is, of course, the only factor by which one can distinguish occupations.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#465

Post by artful-hacker » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

throw10920 wrote: post #429

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

Your first three points are very strong and insightful, but I somewhat object to your fourth. Individuals get loans for things that pay off in the long-term regularly - cars and houses, for the most part. I don't see any reason why college should be different, especially because the alternative is for taxpayers to subsidize it. The real issues are twofold: first, student loans are underregulated and very predatory in…

I think a third real issue is also important, the 'undue hardship' burden necessary to get rid of student loans through bankruptcy needs to be dropped.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#466

Post by j4yav » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

scruple wrote: post #383

granshaw wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a college degree. Not sure how to fix that

I'm in my early 40s. I dropped out of university. I've been programming professionally, in a wide range of contexts and in various industries and niche markets, for over 15 years. I still deal with the stigma associated with not having a college degree. It's not as frequent today as it was when I was at year 1-5, but it still comes up often enough that I get the sense it will never go away.

Curious how it comes up? I’m 42 and dropped out at 16, and it has just never come up, nobody has ever asked me once. I’m not doubting your experience, just curious where our paths differed since it’s such a stark contrast. I’m not a programmer but worked in ops, then product management, then CPO. Maybe it’s something to do with that?

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#467

Post by joey_bob » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #108

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing , right? America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of course true to some extent, but they really put it on a pedestal there. Com…

Our state has a program that covers tuition if you are in-state, received good grades in high school, and continue to maintain those.

Of my (undergraduate) classmates, I believe 60% were out of state, including out of country. Unfortunately, most that came from states with similarly ranked public schools did not have access to a similar program in those states.

My payments to the university totaled $60k for 7 years, undergraduate and masters. (I lost full tuition coverage my first year.)

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#468

Post by zebraflask » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #444

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

Im very skeptical of this post: 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no compari…

I think #1 needs to factor in cost of living. In many urban areas, 45K is near or even below the poverty level for a single worker.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#469

Post by dillondoyle » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

Personally I would not have gotten any value of university in COVID times where there is virtually no 'campus life' and extra curricular.

I've heard this from a lot of kids going through this and I would not be surprised if that's the main driver versus this article's main point of short term work $ versus long term career $.

One of the interviewed kids said "he was tired of remote learning."

I can't find any surveys just googling around if anyone has a source?

for me, education alone would not be worth private school $, or even University of CO money (not science or maths). I barely learned anything from my major subject classes.

I learned a ton from living on campus, doing my sport, student government, being an RA, interning and then working on political campaigns. probably some HN bias I think most here are probably more self starter, more intelligent.

Plus college is about learning about yourself. Hard to become an independent adult when you're living in your parents house doing Zoom all day.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#470

Post by drak0n1c » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

samarama wrote: post #126

sylens wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's quite clearly this. Millennials have been out there for nearly a decade yelling on social media about how ridiculous their student loans are. Kids on the precipice of college have started paying attention. Combine that with the restrictions for Covid, and you have a lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it for some Zoom classe…

Are student loans really such an issue? 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-de... Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.

Federal guarantees for the $120+ billion in annual new student loans that the DOE boasts of in its annual letter are still one of the primary drivers of tuition inflation - with tuition increases compounded over decades that increases costs for both those who take loans and those who don't.