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Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

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Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#461

Post by kfarr »

soco wrote: post #436
tw04 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Radar says one thing and Vision says another over and over who do you trust? Neither? If you don't have a tiebreaker you disengage and let the human decide. We solved this problem in systems long ago. You either fail open or fail closed depending on the system. In this case it seems like you'd always fail to the safest option which is alert the human.

So basically you're driving full speed against an obstacle and you get the commands handed out. It sounds like a slapstick comedy where the pilot says "lol bye you're on your own" and jumps out the plane door.

I think that is still desirable behavior when compared to a slapstick comedy where the pilot says "don't worry bruh I got this" and then proceeds to plow directly into a mountain side

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#462

Post by nexuist »

aeternum wrote: post #421
SloopJon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Twitter thread is lacking in attributions, but I saw most of these some months back after a post about scary FSD behavior. I watched with morbid curiosity, and a rising level of anger. The guy with the white ball cap repeatedly attempted a left turn across two lanes of fast-moving traffic, with a drone providing overhead views. He seemed smart, aware, and even a bit conservative in intervening. Nonetheless, I cou…

Do people sign up to be beta testers whenever a new 15 year-old with a permit gets behind the wheel? It's even crazier that we allow that. The cars that student drivers learn in typically do not have dual control so it's quite difficult to intervene. Every highschool has a story about how a student slammed the accelerator instead of the brake.

People in this thread seem to have overly high expectations about what is required to drive on US public roads. Not even considering that each state has its own licensing and registration requirements, all states except one (Georgia) accept foreign driver's licenses, which means it doesn't even matter what you regulate if countries X, Y, and Z can just not care about it and refuse to enforce it.

Regulating self driving is a good idea but it's a tall order to cast beta software as the menace when there are more idiots driving on the roads at this moment than there will ever be Tesla products.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#463

Post by misiti3780 »

darknavi wrote: post #59
bsagdiyev wrote: post #51

Why are there so many comments from seemingly different posters all saying the same thing on this, "I don't understand why humans are allowed to drive cars"? It feels kinda... culty? Or too similar to be a coincidence. It honestly probably is but these Tesla posts always bring out those types and it confuses me. Humans kill humans, do we want machines to start doing it on the road automatically now too?

Tesla fan here: The Tesla echo chamber is very real in online communities (here, reddit, etc.). I personally enjoy playing with the progress of autopilot over the years and I'd be sad to see it more restricted. I understand that it can be unsafe if left unsupervised but in reality I've never met someone who drives like that.

With the new software update, you cant drive like that, as it it uses the camera on the rear-view mirror to track your eyes.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#464

Post by marvin »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #412
marvin wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're evaluating the system as a L5 autonomous driving system. Not if you're evaluating it as a safety assistance feature.

If it’s a safety assistance feature, it’s not full self driving is it? My crosstrek comes with plenty of safety assistance features too.

That’s true enough, but I’m not going to argue semantics. Tesla is explicitly clear in their product communication that what they’re selling as «full self driving» comes with the massive asterix of «someday» and is not currently an L5 autonomous driving system.

The part of the discussion that concerns their marketing is uninteresting and overdone; someone else can discuss that part.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#465

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

Doxin wrote: post #449
soco wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh but that's what basically every gps software is doing - one moment you're slowly trailing on the highway, the other you're placed on the bridge above.

Most GPS software is smart enough to not flicker between the highway and the bridge repeatedly though. It's not like this category of problems is a wholly new thing. The car needing to switch lanes twice a second like in one of those videos is fairly unlikely, so if the ML is spitting out that it should, there probably ought to be a layer on top of that that's interpreting the ML output that can take the decision to…

> there probably ought to be a layer on top of that that's interpreting the ML output that can take the decision to pick one

It needs to be an input, not just a filter on output. A heuristic that doesn't account for the previously observed state is insufficient because prior existence information changes what gets detected. And it needs to lean heavily toward "if we saw something there before, the safest course of action is to assume that it's still there until strongly indicated otherwise".

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#466

Post by [deleted] »

nexuist wrote: post #459
spywaregorilla wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the screen show the column if functioning correctly? I don't know this ui.

It's possible they have no classifier for "monorail column" so I don't think anything would show up even if it recognized an obstacle was in the way.

[deleted]

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#467

Post by soco »

kfarr wrote: post #461
soco wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you're driving full speed against an obstacle and you get the commands handed out. It sounds like a slapstick comedy where the pilot says "lol bye you're on your own" and jumps out the plane door.

I think that is still desirable behavior when compared to a slapstick comedy where the pilot says "don't worry bruh I got this" and then proceeds to plow directly into a mountain side

I get your point and I agree to it. For the nitpicking, I'd just not use the word "desirable" when the slapstick situation would be rather "less bad"... because "desirable" means a positive outcome while neither one is anything positive.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#468

Post by sudosysgen »

SZJX wrote: post #439
sudosysgen wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not optimism, it's self-delusion that does improve the chance of sucessful outcomes. If I recall correctly Hayek actually writes about it as some point, I can't recall exactly where though.

It surely has a limit though. If you don’t have any actual skills and the hours put into acquiring them, but only bluff with buzzwords and delude yourself into believing that you have said skills while in reality you’re far, far from those who have actually put in the hours and mastered them, you won’t actually get very far. Of course in the OP’s case, things like buying Tesla stocks or crypto back in the day might h…

Definitely. Personally I'd never try to delude myself.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#469

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

londons_explore wrote: post #429
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be trivially handled by stereopsis and structure from motion as well. Stereo+time photogrammetry has been solved well enough to not steer directly towards large obstacles for decades. Overreliance on machine learning pixel models to classify everything in view is the real problem.

Stereopsis doesn't work for these columns because the car only has a single camera seeing them. Structure from motion gets bad results from textureless solids where the edges might be a moving shadow.

> the car only has a single camera seeing them.

The view diagrams on https://www.tesla.com/autopilot seem to indicate that two cameras would have had the columns in view. But if you're right, there's no good reason for it to be the case and perfectly demonstrates gross overreliance on single frame ML.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#470

Post by ricardobeat »

studentrob wrote: post #389
ricardobeat wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same applies to easily distracted human drivers. 1.3 million people die in car accidents every year.

Apples to apples would be comparing miles driven on FSD autopilot to miles driven by human drivers in similar makes of vehicle on the same types of roads in the same weather conditions. Human drivers don't steer towards concrete pillars every time they drive down the street.

Only when they’re drunk, or looking at a mobile phone, or having a heated argument!

The new software seen here hasn’t been released so there’s no data yet. We cannot possibly make an assessment based on a few hand-picked videos - a quick YouTube search will give you thousands of human driver examples that are even more dumb.

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