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Just Be Rich

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461–470 of 1001 posts

Re: Just Be Rich

#461
post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

I agree, but I don't see a solution on the present political landscape.

Free enterprise seems to allow some tiny fraction of such highly motivated geniuses to excel, lets say 0.0000001%. Other systems seem to allow 0% of these people to excel, or at least to do so anywhere near their full potential. The comparison seems to be between a horrible system where almost nobody can excel and more horrible systems where absolutely nobody can excel.

You occasionally get historical anomalies where bureaucratic or authoritarian states innovate, such as when the state machinery of the US and USSR raced to the Moon or the burst of innovation in Nazi Germany. In that case the forcing function was war (or Cold War in the US/USSR sense), and war seems the only thing capable of motivating bureaucracies. I guess the other source of historical anomalies is when you have the explicit blessing of a king or someone really close to the throne, but the bandwidth for that is strictly limited and you often get long periods of idiot kings where nothing happens.

Without war or extreme will at the top all you get is meetings to plan the meeting to do a study on the effectiveness of more meetings. In more militaristic/fascist state regimes you also get a perpetual "game of thrones" at the upper echelons.

Maybe what we need is a more egalitarian socialist system coupled with a perpetual threat of alien invasion? Wait... isn't this sort of how you got the Star Trek socialist utopia? We need some Klingons.

Edit: the trouble, I think, is that innovation and achievement are antisocial. We often like the result, but the act is always a form of rebellion. It's often a rebellion limited to the mind of the actor, but it's rebellion nonetheless. All human social systems act to suppress deviance, so what you need for innovation is a system that tolerates deviance and manages to do so in a peaceful way.

Interdependent social structures of any kind suppress rebellion and channel human effort into social game playing such as the "meetings about meetings" and "game of thrones" phenomena I mentioned.

Capitalism is the only system I know of that allows non-violent antisocial acts of innovation at scale. By violence in this context I am including lies, bureaucratic subterfuge, and fraud. (Yes you do get those in capitalism but they're not required. There is a way to get there without them.) In all the other systems you have to hack your way out of the social jungle with a machete to innovate... or you have to be king and there's only one of those.

In any other system Elon Musk would probably have had to engineer a coup at the space agency by getting its present head thrown in prison for "corruption" (as they do in China) to assume his position and have an opportunity to get Falcon or Starship built. To get them across the finish line he'd probably have to focus a great deal of his energy on planting knives in the backs of his bureaucratic challengers. There would be only one space agency so there would be only one such throne to fight over, so if Elon's approach failed there would be no Blue Origin or RocketLab.

Basically we suck at politics. Every political system is horrible. I think this is largely because politics is still pre-scientific. We think in terms of political ideologies (fantasies more or less) dreamed up in an irrational evidence-free manner by arrogant mountebanks or populist meme wars. Instead we should start with game theory. AFAIK game theory and simulation have never even been leveraged to cook up a hypothetical political system.

Re: Just Be Rich

#462
post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

You left out the most significant reason: that most people just aren't as lucky as those guys. In the US, you can become a millionaire through hard work and dedication and not much luck. However, there is nowhere that you can become a billionaire without tremendous luck.

Amassing that type of wealth depends on many other people embracing your ideas, and random events that are entirely beyond your control working out in your favor. There are ways to improve your odds of reaching this level of success - if you never start a business, your odds are zero. But luck is the ultimate decider of who becomes a "self-made" billionaire out of those that are actively trying to become one.

Re: Just Be Rich

#463

Every time I see wealth inequality being talked about, I remember this quote: "It's not greed that drives the world, but envy.".

I hate that quote. Personally I’m not envious of the rich, I despise them. I hate the fact that there are rich people, not because I want to be one some day, but because they ruin the party for the rest of us. The climate disaster is disproportionately the fault of the rich, yet it is the poor who are disproportionately affected by it. I don’t envy the rich. When I see the rich, I see pitiful humans that work too muc…

Whatever let's you sleep at night, bud. I'm sure you really think like that, and not rationalizing your inability to become rich.

Re: Just Be Rich

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously money will not change everything but if you get a monthly allowance to feed your children it will probably decrease the incidence of onion vomit for a substantial portion of them. Which seems valuable in its own right. Dealing with a large lump sum payment is inherently much harder.

I agree, I think some sort of universal income payment for each child would be the least controversial version of UBI.

Really? I think you would hear some strong arguments about how that would incentivise people to have tons of kids.

Re: Just Be Rich

#465
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably not the place to say the following, but I just have to. Reading your comment nearly made me cry, because it (strikingly) reminded me of my own story. You are not alone. Keep your head up (as you seem to always have done), and if you can, make peace with the past and your parents. This took me a LOT of time, but it helped me. Thank you for sharing your story.

Thank you, it's been a while now since I started improving things so it's easier to look at this more objectively. I was harsh on my parents in that post, they were dysfunctional but my mother loved all of us in her own way and spent her whole life arround us, and I can't say a lot of good things about my father - dealing with my mother in those days would break anyone. I'm on good terms with them now and they are in…

Was it in the Balkans?

Re: Just Be Rich

#467
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In startups you have to be right only once.

In startups you get to be wrong only once.

What is that supposed to mean? Fail fast and move on is one of the mantras of the industry and as far as I can tell from reading HN most startup founders and employees all have numerous startups under their belt unless they accidently unicorned their very first one.

Re: Just Be Rich

#468

“You would think, after having been on the side of labor in its fight with capital for almost two centuries, that the far left would be happy that labor has finally prevailed.” This is listed as a quote from the PG essay. It seems to represent a fundamental misunderstanding of what “labor” means here. When the left fights for “labor” it is for all laborers to get a fair shake. PG seems to be talking about the fact th…

I bet you Peter Thiel understands Marxism. Comfortably the most honest tech billionaire I’ve read.

Ok, but the reason he (kind of) knows a bit about Marxism it is because he's a right-wing accelerationist (more specifically, a neoreactionary), and this needs to be properly said in context before just naively moving on with "he's a billionaire who has actually read Marx and has the caliber able to critique him".

Accelerationists are people who view that capitalism can be a liberating force for humanity, whether it can contradict and end itself to achieve a communisty society (left-wing), or its capitalist systems will supersede humanity itself towards a technological singularity (right-wing). There are also some other kinds such as U/acc (Unconditional accelerationism) and G/acc (Gender accelerationism). But regardless of political position they all acknowledge their influences from Marx (since he's one of the first scholars who have articulated the revolutionary aspect of non-linear capitalist growth, and often hailed as a proto-accelerationist). Though Deleuze/Guattari is perhaps the more important figure here, as (in their book Anti-Oedipus) they map out how capitalism is a deterritorializing force that scrambles away previous territories of tribe, nation, religion, family, and ideology.

To be honest, Thiel's perhaps far more dangerous than any previous right-wing populist such as Trump, since he actually has some capital and connections (and the will) in order to actually achieve his techno-feudalist dream. His dreams of an America as a monarchist society run by a CEO might be really good for the current rich elites in tech, but clearly the most of us are not them, and we would still be getting fucked anyway (previously by a corrupt neoliberal government, now by a fascist-libertarian one!). Even though some of his assessment of the pitfalls of liberal democracy in the US might be agreeable, we really should be able to think a better future society for the majority than anything of Thiel's vision.

Re: Just Be Rich

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give a viable alternative that doesn't descend into fascism. Capitalism is called the 'least worst' system for a reason, and some countries have an excellent QoL under it.

> Capitalism is called the 'least worst' system Capitalism is only called "least worst" by capitalists themselves. Much of humanity considers capitalism "the worst". > Give a viable alternative that doesn't descend into fascism So, to give some historic perspective, capitalism is precisely the root cause of fascism. All totalitarian systems are capitalist by essence, and historic fascism in France, Germany, Italy, Gr…

You are making the same mistake as all the revolutionaries you mention - you completely disregard the problem of efficiently allocating limited resources, and that there are vast differences in capabilities of different people to do it. In other words, merely putting the means of production into hands of workers and asking them to manage these by consensus does not guarantee "society in which nobody has to worry for a place to sleep and food to feed their children". There are some cases which succeeded, yes, but also many that failed.

Re: Just Be Rich

#470
post #148

There's a little company called MyTeksi. My is a for-profit social startup with a mission to revolutionise the taxi industry. They started GrabCar, which killed off the taxi industry with higher wages, higher quality services, lower prices. To win the war against Uber, they'd lie about how long it took for a car to arrive, and they'd deceive drivers as well. A driver might be promised a $100 bonus for driving into an…

Ironically, this story is also exactly what Uber did to every market it expanded to.

Is it irony? They all think they're slaying monsters.
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