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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#461
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s anti-fraud to stop someone from stealing your card and using it elsewhere. You can usually pre-empt that by informing the bank of travel.

Yeah this story means that their anti fraud system sucks. false positives should be at 0.0001%

Pretty much. I travel with multiple cards from different banks. Recent trip where I notified the banks ahead of time I'd be travelling. Results as follows:

Bank 1 : no issues at all with them. Used that card in 6 countries within 40 hours.

Bank 2 : they killed the card on first use in foreign country (the one I listed as visiting). When I got back it took a week of calls to halfway sort out the mess and then I just cancelled the account in disgust.

Bank 3: they flagged the card. I was notified via app. I called them. They unlocked the account / transaction all was good from then on. Further transactions were fine.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#462
post #422
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does, you go to the bank and get more cash. If your card gets stolen however, you go to the bank, fill out a ton of forms, pay a fee for losing your card. Wait a few days for your new card to be delivered in the mail. And then, finally can you pay again. In the meanwhile, you are forced to pay with... cash! Which nobody accepts, because not having a debit card is socially unacceptable in our society.

> you go to the bank and get more cash. Not sure which country you are talking about but the vast majority of people go to an ATM not the bank to get cash. You still need a debit card to get cash from an ATM.

Hence, if your wallet is stolen, you go to the bank, not the ATM.

But I actually assumed just the cash was gone. Either bank or ATM works fine in that situation.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#463
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways in which Japan is more civilized than Sweden is. Speaking as a Swedish native who lived in japan for years

Cash is not one of those things though. Nor is the system of buying metro tickets with cash only and without an option to change language.

Metro tickets with cash only seem fine to me. What is your problem with that?

I believe inside of Tokyo almost all the machines also support a variety of languages now, but there might be a scattered few with only Japanese.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.

All regulations that are enforced are coercive by definition. The regulations that create a de facto monopoly are coercive. I would guess some surveillance is involved in terms of audits of banks, but it might not fit the technical definition of surveillance.

In this case it's a lack of regulation though. Stores are not coerced into accepting cash, so they choose what's most practical to them.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#465

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

Australian who travelled through Sweden and Norway in September of this year for two weeks.

I just used contactless payments on my credit card the entire time and never had any issues. To me it seems more like Swish-specific issues rather than cashless in general? However, if some people are disadvantaged by different cashless options then that is a definite issue.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the most obvious reason for the cashless trend is that cashless is easier and more fruitful for buyer and seller. Buyer just touches their card/phone to the machine. Who likes dealing with cash? (Answer: Germans)

Also Greeks, Italians and most the Europeans I know. Cashless is a Northern European thing I would say. Edit: Please comment if things are different in your non-Swedish country (considering Europe here, but curious about other countries of course).

That's mostly tax dodging though. Many EU countries have that baked in to the tax regime. If it was actually enforced (a la cashless) the entire e.g. Belgian restaurant sector would disappear overnight. Everyone there knows it. It's kinda weird.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.

You have a severe lack of imagination. You must be fun at parties. There are a myriad of ways Sweden can and probably is enforcing cashless trends through surveillance and coercion. Encouraging banks and retailers to refuse cash services, as referenced in the article, is likely done by the government. This enhances their ability to track and control all monetary transactions for any number of reasons (nefarious or ot…

Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't post like this again.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how Sweden in this case is enforcing the cashless trends through surveillance or coercion.

Lots of oppressive regimes and policies throughout 20th century had large popular support too, and people opted-in to them.

Exactly, this is not stated enough. We have to grow up with our relationship with political systems, authoritarianism even dictatorship: it happens because of some population dynamics which we may or may not be currently be participating in or regularly encounter. So sure, the question of why cashless has taken off there is interesting, but maybe more importantly we need to think about the current state, what could be the next moves (the consequences), do we want to influence it and targeting what?

...

But thinking about currencies and economy in europe is always kinda doomed because the euro is double-locked. No national economic policy actually has a meaning since at most your gonna leverage some power to influence the ECB, but you're never gonna be the one to actually decide. So there is a complicated combat to do cross european countries saying ok we have to re-found the mission and the organization of the ECB, the relationship with national economies. How do we want to keep down inflation: just maintain growth in face of other world economies that actually grow or make ourselves more independent, what do we do when countries have diverging interests, how do we make sure it's regulated and we keep control on it?

I would vouch for a system where euro exists but is restricted to cross-country corporate business and easy traveling: common credit card system where you can transparently withdraw any participating national money at the current nation negociated exchange rate (eg federating by having a star topology instead of a complete graph for exchange rates: "we treat all the others the same"). Additionally the BCE should have a second decision instance (two-chamber-like) basically being the european budget commission but elected by people, not chosen by governments, to ease cross-country political action. And on a more technical/practical level we have to rethink about wire transfers. I don't know much about how SEPA works but it's probably interesting to take a look.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#469
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with cash is that you cannot really control high-school dropouts to charge $10 for a $2 beer without skimming a bit on the side. Hence this whole "here's some fake money that only works here" BS.

Pretty trivial to solve... sell drink tickets.

Isn't that just replacing cash with monopoly money?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty trivial to solve... sell drink tickets.

Isn't that just replacing cash with monopoly money?

No, you have the stoners pour beer and don’t let them handle cash. The people who handle cash don’t handle beer.

It’s a fairly typical internal control for that type of operation.

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