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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#461

Post by dragonwriter »

turc1656 wrote: post #457
vertex-four wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that behaviours which tend to have disproportionate impact on one gender over another are still sexist, and women often have difficulty interrupting in the way that the men here did.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he…

> By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women.

No, the effects of deliberate, targeted differences in socialization by gender aren't the fault of the people experiencing adverse impacts because of the intersection of those with social structures that respond better to people socialized in the manner which is targeted at the other gender.

> In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men.

It's not sexist to recognize that the consequences of past sexism may require corrective action that is sensitive to the gender-differentiated effects of that past sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#462

Post by natosaichek »

logfromblammo wrote: post #382
jasonshen wrote: post #11

Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but th…

I get talked over all the time. I usually chalk it up to being an American living in America, but with a more Scandinavian/Minnesotan conversational style. That is, I will pause while speaking, spooling my next thought out to the phonological loop, to review and filter it, before streaming it out through the voice apparatus, but then some jackass will use that break to assume conversational priority when I haven't yi…

I cannot agree more. Thread done. Thank you for expressing yourself with such great metaphor.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#463

Post by bobwaycott »

dmix wrote: post #268
qznc wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how should I deal with it? The only way I see is to have an objective definition, which can be objectively applied no matter which glasses I wear. What would that definition of sexism be?

No, this is silly. All language and behaviour has context. This idea that you can eliminate the shades of grey to find some absolute definition is largely what makes me uncomfortable with the more extreme proponents of this stuff. Such as those who believe particular words in isolation are always bad regardless of context. It would be much healthier culturally if we take into full consideration the meaning and intent…

Fwiw, the linked post says the moderator comments on Veronika Hubeny's lack of speaking time, so he wasn't unaware. This presumably is what prompted shifting the discussion to her field. I'm not suggesting this provides any demonstrable proof the moderator was being sexist—Veronika's comments indicate her own take on the moderator's potential motivations.

Nonetheless, I do agree there are pitfalls and dangers in attempting to always distill nuance and shades of gray into stark, problematized blacks and whites. Sexism, like racism, definitely exists—it is woven into the cultural fabric and narratives that compose American society and consciousness. However, we are long past the overt institutionalization of these isms, which leaves recognizing it a regrettable slog through subtler shades of gray that leave opportunities for vehement disagreement. Sometimes I think everyone would be happier if they lived several decades ago, when these isms were black and white, and found themselves standing in solidarity on their own bridges of Selma.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#464

Post by _pmf_ »

masondixon wrote: post #328
andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

> I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was rooted in sexism So who is sexist in this scenario? Turns out its the feminist in the audience assuming that a woman needs someone to cause a public disturbance because she could not help herself be heard. Why is it every time some social justice event gains public attention, it turns out to not be sexism/racist/etc. at all.

That's exactly my interpretation of the situation. The moderator is exceedingly polite towards everyone; there's not a trace of sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#465

Post by braveo »

vocatus_gate wrote: post #107
braveo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's how the younger generation of feminists was taught to look at the world. It's why most of the time I find myself gravitating to many of the older, more balanced, feminists. Mansplaining is the classic problem looking for a solution.

Did you mean "solution looking for a problem"? I didn't understand what you said.

yes, that's what I meant, I was in a hurry this morning.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#466

Post by dang »

dating_advice wrote: post #359

Not contributing, am I? But that kind of voting is contributing, so much so that you have to get a bunch of karma to be allowed the privilege, right? Dear god. Yeah, I'm not allowed to talk about votes, but if you're going to give random people the ability to grey out comments of others anonymously, that's just tough luck. I don't care about the POINTS, I care what they're trying to say, and to that I will respond wi…

This comment breaks the HN guidelines by going on about downvotes. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (and https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html) and follow them when commenting here.

We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14507266 and marked it off-topic.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#467

Post by cthalupa »

randomguy23 wrote: post #221
_lex wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

The problem is, it exists. I've seen it plenty of times. It's particularly bad for women in male dominated fields. They have to be aware of it and on the look out for it so they can deal with it. If you continually assume the good in people, when sexism is a common occurrence, you get fucked over. Repeatedly.

There's a female engineer on my team. She started at roughly the same time as a male engineer. Similar levels of experience in the past. Both are quite good. But she's better, especially in several specialties. They sit near each other - and you have to walk past her to get to him. I see people day in and day out walk right past her to ask him about the things that she is a subject matter expert on, that he is not. People that don't have a real background with either of them, where it is widely know that she specializes in this specific thing. It's constant. I'm the most tenured engineer on the team, so people come to me frequently for things - I know it's because of my tenure. But she knows more than I do in these areas, so I refer people to her on the more in depth things. And a good portion of them then walk right past her, and instead ask the male engineer. She also constantly gets dinged by people for giving short and to the point answers - something that he and I do not have a problem with, despite having the same general style of answering questions.

Should she chalk this up to something else? Assume that all of these repeat occurrences are due to some other root cause? Her technical chops are not in question by anyone that actually works with the tech involved - she's undisputedly talented there and has been vital in cracking several major problems. Yet this keeps happening.

Should she ignore it? Should the rest of the team? Or should it be acknowledged and talked about, so people that are (almost certainly) doing this unconsciously can reflect on it and try to modify their behavior to be less biased?

And this is just one of many examples I've witnessed over the past decade+. Sexism colored glasses for women are a basic necessity if you have any interest in trying to get what you deserve.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#468

Post by Sorreah »

turc1656 wrote: post #457
vertex-four wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that behaviours which tend to have disproportionate impact on one gender over another are still sexist, and women often have difficulty interrupting in the way that the men here did.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he…

Protip: It's not.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#469

Post by [deleted] »

turc1656 wrote: post #457
vertex-four wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that behaviours which tend to have disproportionate impact on one gender over another are still sexist, and women often have difficulty interrupting in the way that the men here did.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women. In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he…

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#470

Post by AmIFirstToThink »

ajuckel wrote: post #325
AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She saw it as questioner trying to put on table his understanding of the theory so she can correct him in his understanding. e.g. Mam, you tell me if I got this correctly. This is how I think it works... I think it is actually a position of submission in a discussion, the person who is doing the talking is accepting the higher authority of person doing the listening to find errors in your understanding of the subject…

I don't understand why we're arguing about what the moderator's intent might have been. That seems very much beside the point. I was asking for clarification because it seemed that the post I was replying to was implying that the perspective of the person on the stage should somehow color what we all learn from the Facebook post. I think the person on stage and the people in the audience are all entitled to their own…

>the perspective of the person on the stage should somehow color what we all learn from the Facebook post.

What if you knew she was guiding his PhD thesis? That he was her student. What if he had conversations with her before this topic trying to understand her theory?

What the person on the stage was feeling does matter.

Ms. Talkington is entitled to her interpretation of the event. But, to say that interpretation is correct, by itself, in all circumstances, is not accurate.

> The point is simply to listen and try to understand another point of view.

Just simply listen? why? why am I being denied to have an interpretation and opinion and be able to voice it?

Ms. Talkington did and I fully support her in her ability to have an interpretation and speak about about it and act upon it.

I claim the same and will not let it be infringed upon.

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