A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#451

Post by jl6 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:39 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #442

Tloewald wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides that, asking any government to take money from the people, run it through the giant bureaucracy machine, and magically produce a net benefit to the people is both logically impossible and naturally never going to happen. So apparently the federal highway system isn't a net benefit? How about the internet? Also in more direct terms, the government "magically" made profits by bailing out AIG, GM, and so on --…

I think you're right that a lot of things like roads are a huge net benefit to everyone. But those are things, not money. I don't claim to know what basic income would do, but I worry for the supply side of the equation. I used to work in a factory making windows. It was a terrible, terrible job and nobody would do it given a choice. So if everyone has the choice not to do it, what happens to the supply of goods like…

Window making being a terrible job is new information to me. What was so bad?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#452

Post by erkkie » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #411

cmdkeen wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What incentive do they have to educate themselves? After all they currently had an incentive to educate themselves during their period of compulsory education yet still ended up working in a minimum wage job they value so little they'd quit if they were given a minimum wage. You don't see masses of low waged workers in countries with maximum working hours (and thus some leisure time) educating themselves.

The modern economy is hit driven. 1 J. K. Rowling pays for a lot of not J.K. Rowlings. Individual's fortunes look a whole lot like a random walk. Some people, get over their crack addiction and become writers for the new york times, some people get over their wall street addiction and become crack smokers. It's tough to say where a particular person will be in 20 years. Before you start listing off titans of silicon…

Very wonderfully put, this is the basic premise in which I see no other way than a form of basic income for developed nations in the future. The interesting question is one of timeframe and methods.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#453

Post by Natsu » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #447

Natsu wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right that a lot of things like roads are a huge net benefit to everyone. But those are things, not money. I don't claim to know what basic income would do, but I worry for the supply side of the equation. I used to work in a factory making windows. It was a terrible, terrible job and nobody would do it given a choice. So if everyone has the choice not to do it, what happens to the supply of goods like…

If a job is so unpleasant that people will only do it to avoid abject poverty and its miseries then something is wrong with that job. Probably that window manufacturing job could have been much more pleasant given the right process changes, but the factory owner was not incentivized to try because they could find someone willing / forced to accept that job as it was. In essence, basic income does away with wage slave…

I'll be honest: even if you gave me unlimited money to fix it, I wouldn't want to work there. It was already about as robotic as it could get and yes, there were definitely a few things that could have made it less bad, but I don't think that job could be good.

Also, I'm not so deluded to think that it was the worst job in the world, either. I mean, in that world, who collects trash? There are a lot of necessary jobs that just plain suck and we're simply zeroing any incentive one might have to do those.

In that vein, if we go this route, I'd almost think we would be better off to supply basic goods (food, shelter) than cash. That at produces some semblance of incentive structure for improvement while leaving an out for those who have been made irrelevant by technology.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#454

Post by Joeri » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #434

[deleted] wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> The monetary system is pretty well understood. Basic income just becomes another input for money to enter the system. I'm no fan of basic income however basic income comes from tax. This is redistributive, but not expansionary. You say it's well understood but you seem to think that central bank issued currency is the cause of inflation. Most "money" is created as credit from private banks (against land). Again, ba…

Basic income does run the risk of causing ancillary money creation. People may end up lending more because they have a guaranteed income. For example, my country at one point introduced a tax credit for home loans, provided it was your only home, to incentivize people to become owner instead of renter and gain financial security. The net effect was that home prices rose to offset the tax credit, because many people lend at the upper range of their budget and suddenly that limit was higher. Basic income risks having a similar effect.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#455

Post by __z » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:43 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #6

ryan-allen wrote: post #2

I wonder how much you'd need to save and to own in order to conduct this experiment on yourself? I've wondered about what I would do day to day if I didn't 'have to work to live'. I honestly think I'd be doing very similar things. I'd still be programming, and I'd be wanting to make things that'd help people do their jobs better, but I wouldn't feel like I 'had to'. That alone would improve my sanity immensely (I thi…

The problem there is that you have a cushy programming job. The bigger question is what about the gas station clerks? Or cleaning people? Or wait staff? Or any of the people working the millions of other jobs that just totally suck. Having done it in the past, I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes. So, maybe people who have awesome jobs will just keep doing what they're doing, b…

>I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes.

Maybe you don't but there's some people who do. I, personally, actually did enjoy my time working at food service. The first place I worked was poorly run and it sucked but the second place I worked at great management and it was generally a good job minus the pay. I enjoyed my time there.

I also know someone (with a degree) who is a restaurant manager who loves her job as well.

> why not say, "F* it, I can get by with the guaranteed minimum, so why bother?"

Because, most people want to be able to do more. Working at McDonalds might give you enough spending cash to be able to do the stuff you want to do like have a fancy car, jewelry, nights out, vacations, etc.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#456

Post by branchless » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:47 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #454

branchless wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The monetary system is pretty well understood. Basic income just becomes another input for money to enter the system. I'm no fan of basic income however basic income comes from tax. This is redistributive, but not expansionary. You say it's well understood but you seem to think that central bank issued currency is the cause of inflation. Most "money" is created as credit from private banks (against land). Again, ba…

Basic income does run the risk of causing ancillary money creation. People may end up lending more because they have a guaranteed income. For example, my country at one point introduced a tax credit for home loans, provided it was your only home, to incentivize people to become owner instead of renter and gain financial security. The net effect was that home prices rose to offset the tax credit, because many people l…

Ok yes it could do, but your example augments my main point. Most credit creation is against land. When you incentivise land speculation you create inflation. We've seen this leading up into 2008 when the money supply rocketed.

Basic income is IMHO a bad idea and we should do land value tax, as I said in my post. I don't think basic income would prove as inflationary as a direct tax subsidy against land speculation as the former could feed into some land speculation whereas the latter is basically intended to fuel this fire.

edit - whoops realised I put about land value tax in my other comment. Anyways: land value tax - the establishment hate it.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#457

Post by Haegin » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:48 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #96

anticon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't mention the fact it's completely unworkable mathematically. In the UK I believe it'd cost £240 billion a year. Where the hell would anyone be able to find that money from? (Tackling tax avoidance from Starbucks isn't a credible answer). Just to put it in context, that's twice the entire NHS's budget, or 5 times our defence spending.

We wouldn't need money for most benefits any more (pensions, income support, etc) so that's about £120bn of the £240bn found immediately. You mention the NHS - we'd be able to spend a lot less on that if people didn't have poverty-induced health problems, so there's another £35bn (assuming a 30% reduction of the £110bn). It's not unreasonable to assume that the difference of £85bn would essentially pay for itself by…

It's also worth remembering that at the moment everyone in the UK gets a tax free allowance of £10,600 and an NI free allowance of about £8000 (in 2015/16). The basic income is expected to replace that as well, which means if everyone continues to earn the same amounts that's an extra £2000 per person earning more than £10k (roughly, assuming it's now taxed at 20% in the first tax bracket). NI would be less, and is probably more complex as employers pay some of that, but just assuming that only the employees contributions are now paid on what was previously NI free you're still looking at another £1k each. It's not much individually, but when you take out the costs of administering all of that it'll add up.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#458

Post by __z » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

moonchrome wrote: post #144

JupiterMoon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of basic income is to take people out of starvation and lack of shelter. It would still leave people wanting to earn in order to e.g. go on holiday, own a computer, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, eat nice food, own a car (in Europe where owning a car is not required at least) etc - i.e. still plenty of incentive to work, earn and save just more freedom to take risks by e.g. starting that business... You al…

I doubt people are starving in developed countries so I wouldnt say it's taking anyone out of starvation, it's an alternative to existing welfare in that regard. And when we get to "basic shelter" well coupled with free health care I guarantee you there are people out there who have very little ambition beyond that, I know more than a few from highschool that literally said things like "all i need is enough money to…

>I doubt people are starving in developed countries so I wouldnt say it's taking anyone out of starvation

Grew up with friends who had no food sometimes. My mom would give me food to bring to their house when I went to visit. The mother also had very serious medical problems which was a big reason for that.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#459

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #434

[deleted] wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> The monetary system is pretty well understood. Basic income just becomes another input for money to enter the system. I'm no fan of basic income however basic income comes from tax. This is redistributive, but not expansionary. You say it's well understood but you seem to think that central bank issued currency is the cause of inflation. Most "money" is created as credit from private banks (against land). Again, ba…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#460

Post by Natsu » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #451

Natsu wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right that a lot of things like roads are a huge net benefit to everyone. But those are things, not money. I don't claim to know what basic income would do, but I worry for the supply side of the equation. I used to work in a factory making windows. It was a terrible, terrible job and nobody would do it given a choice. So if everyone has the choice not to do it, what happens to the supply of goods like…

Window making being a terrible job is new information to me. What was so bad?

I have to assume you haven't worked with glass much. Maybe artisan glassblowers enjoy it, but at the factory level it's pretty miserable.

It's pretty easy to get injured in spite of safety gear. There are the minor cuts, scrapes and splinters one might experience when dealing with (literal!) tons of broken glass, to say nothing of the times it breaks in your hands. And I was grateful to work on the tempered side. Raw glass breaking when handled is terrifying.

I personally gave first aid to someone whose wrist was slit open by glass. After the ER airlifted to a bigger hospital for reconstructive surgery, he at least retained most of the use of his hand. Note that everyone was issued Kevlar wrist guards (not to mention the jackets, goggles, etc.), so it's not like we were unprepared for such injuries.

Another plant had someone crushed under a forklift just before Christmas when it tipped over when they were emptying a glass hopper. Yet another plant had a sheet of glass break when two people were carrying it. It was raw. It cut open the person's neck and they died. One of the machines used to be called a 'Gas Chamber' (it was used to fill IG units with, e.g. argon). I'll let you guess what sort of incident made them rename that one...

I'm sure there are many more such stories, but I'm including only those I know about directly. There were many other issues as well, I don't have a complete list. I'm deliberately leaving out those issues that could be fixed merely by spending money.