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A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

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Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#421

The main thing to remember with this is that even if you do end up with a % of people who do just bum around on basic, a lot more still would rather earn enough to live a more interesting life. And wages will probably go up to incentivize people to do the crap jobs - or encourage someone to find a way to automate it.

Hiring people will be so much more enjoyable :

Hire when business is booming

Send people home when business is slow

No tears if you let someone go

No more billing the customer for employees who do nothing

More skilled people to hire

Training employees for the price of training

More people to chose from

No more minimum wage(!)

Free employees who want to learn

Honest short job interviews (starting wages as low as zero)

No more complex pension plans

No more complex insurance

Less medical tests

No more unreliable temp employees

No more employees who hate you with a passion

Less theft and vandalism

A lot more customers as the economy now works for human beings

A lot more businesses to buy from and to sell to as anyone can now start a business

More competition thus more efficiency

More social interaction and empathy

And (I jokingly add) Incentive for employers to stop acting like assholes

And the social benefits and savings are also huge: We could stop breeding massive amounts of criminals whose annual cost is equal to four years at Harvard[1] Police officers would be able to do their job without fear of being killed and without killing people. But the greatest social and economic accomplishment is to set people free from the life of fear that is job insecurity. People can stop living from day to day, dream the big dream, learn what needs to be learned and accomplish the big dream. This might be hard to imagine if you have a nice life and know nice people who are doing well for themselves. But even then you know how nice it is to have help from friends who believe in accomplishment. A few words of encouragement, a bit of help with your weaknesses. Ohh it is a world of difference from being surrounded by people who believe in failure because they've seen nothing else. Imagine the kind of help you would get from friends or relatives who just want to get drunk or high simply to forget what miserable lives they have. They will be there for you every day to remind you that whatever it is you are trying to do won't amount to anything - and then they will enjoy your failures.

Not unlike the people who don't want to see a basic income because other people might enjoy their lives. Those of us who want to build a modern, functional, resilient and happy society have to work with these people who want nothing more than to see others suffer. shrug

[1] - http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/cost-inmate-nyc-ivy-leag...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#422
post #239

Are there any studies out there about the second order effects ? If everyone is getting BI, I'm expecting rent to go up. Like, waaaaaaay up. Up to the point where no one can live from BI anymore.

When people don't have to pick their housing based on the location of low-wage jobs (dense cities), I would expect the rent to go down due to better utilization of the total housing supply.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#423

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#424

The main thing to remember with this is that even if you do end up with a % of people who do just bum around on basic, a lot more still would rather earn enough to live a more interesting life. And wages will probably go up to incentivize people to do the crap jobs - or encourage someone to find a way to automate it.

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#425
post #419

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

"America will be about the last place to attempt this..."

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I believe it's related to the topic of basic income, and hopefully it's at least slightly interesting! :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

(Coincidentally, I only heard about it last weekend, at what you could describe as an "alternative economics" conference.)

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#426
post #352
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will you deal with inflation? Wouldn't the sudden influx of many cause the price for basic goods, rent etc to go up?

If you pay for basic income with tax dollars, it will (theoretically) cause no long-term inflation. See: https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...

Thanks. I need to read this when I have the time -- my initial reaction (from skimming) is that it keeps insisting that increasing money supply does not cause inflation because of the Fed pumping money into the economy, and giving it to investors who are not spending it.

Giving it to the poor, who have a higher marginal utility for their dollars, should cause more inflation than giving it to the rich. Again, from skimming, they seem to mention the idea of it being more useful for the poor, but dance around actually addressing it directly.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#427

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of a basic income. One of the great things about universal healthcare is that you just never worry about it. I never have to think about what would happen to myself or my spouse or my kids if they get cancer after I quit or lose my job. Whether my insurance will fight me on some treatment, or if it covers the rights things. It's nice. Basic income seems like…

The output side of BI is naturally attractive. Everybody gets money. How could that not be attractive? I'm just skeptical about how we would fund BI to a level that is meaningful while maintaining some modicum of equitability and equanimity. Just to lift everyone to the poverty line in the USA ($11,770) would require paying out more than $3 trillion in net benefits, or roughly the size of the entire federal budget to…

To be sure, in a certain income range, you'd be taking more money out of their left pocket while putting it back into their right pocket. (While simply taking more money on net from higher incomes.)

That said: It's 1.) very hard to see how you make the numbers work and 2.) I imagine that if you told a lot of the BI advocates on this thread "Fine, I'll wave a magic wand and give everyone a BI of $10K," the reaction would be "I can't live on that!" (I also assume that someone in the US today right at the poverty line is probably eligible for certain types of assistance that BI proposals would supposedly eliminate.)

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#428
post #203
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

I believe you are making yourself upset by arguing from the point of the ideal. Its not a matter of meritocracy vs basic income. Its the current welfare state vs basic income. People like you and I are already paying loads of money to the masses in the form of (from an American perspective) Food Stamps, continued Federal make-work programs (like the USPS/military), Social Security, Disability Insurance, Medicare/Medi…

Add to this the money you are paying to pay police, prisons, security systems, and insurance to protect yourself against petty crime.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#429
post #419

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

> We have no competing group of people who are on welfare yet still CHOOSE to work to better their lives.

I think we do, every state has a Vocational Rehabilitation program that attempt to do just that. In fact, I became disabled at the age of 22, and could have lived the rest of my life with full disability benefits, But instead chose to use one of these programs. I have since payed back in taxes to the state + more that what I most likely used. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFDA/WorkingatFDA/UCM277757...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#430

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

> take money from the people, run it through the giant bureaucracy machine, and magically produce a net benefit to the people is both logically impossible and naturally never going to happen.

Seems to work in late stage free markets dominated by 2-3 large-scale players.

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