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Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#451

Post by facepalm »

dopamean wrote: post #109
chrismonsanto wrote: post #11

My #1 question -- is Eich returning to CTO, another position, or quitting altogether? All in all, I think this was a pragmatic move. I am not a fan of this "CEO = literally the company" logic, though. I saw no reason to believe that he would use Mozilla to further an anti-gay agenda.

> I saw no reason to believe that he would use Mozilla to further an anti-gay agenda. I agree. However, it's a little weird if you say you are a company who values diversity and different lifestyles but you have a CEO who is openly against a particular group of people. That kind of contradiction at the very top makes things weird.

Has he ever said anything against gays? Being opposed to gay marriage is not the same as being opposed to gays.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#452

Post by jackmaney »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31
Oculus wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how I feel about this one. On the one hand, Brendan Eich had some beliefs that were against Mozilla's core values, but on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. It's scary because this mob has global reach, unlimited power, but isn't always right.

on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. I don't think that this follows. In this particular case, someone was promoted to a role which many felt was incompatible with his personal views; they made that known, and the person in question stepped down. That's kind of how things should work in a community enterprise. That said, I understand he's received wildly disp…

> That said, I understand he's received wildly disproportionate abuse, like death threats.

[citation needed]

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#453

Post by stormbrew »

eternalban wrote: post #284
nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

> this line of reasoning is very troubling to me .. This entire affair is troubling. This individual's livelihood was affected because of his socio-political views and activities. Your 2nd paragraph correctly underlines the more important issue.

Can we have some perspective here? His livelihood has been at no point under threat. Unless you have some evidence that the CEO job was somehow keeping him from the poorhouse, this is just a ridiculous term to use here.

He still works for Mozilla (as far as I can tell) and he almost certainly still has a significant say in how it's run through the shares he almost certainly has (I can't find any specifics on it in a cursory search, but it would be astounding if it were not so).

But when he made that donation, he was tying himself to a cause. As an officer of a company he is a face of that company. This is true in all companies and for all causes, and it was his choice to make the donation and the company's choice to appoint him to a position where that donation would reflect poorly on them.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#454

Post by cek994 »

twoodfin wrote: post #281
andrewpi wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Barack Obama, the President of the US, was against gay marriage in 2008; I'm confused as to why he gets a pass here, but the head of Mozilla doesn't?

I can understand why he gets a pass: He probably was only publicly against it in 2008 in order to win an election, and when it was politically convenient he had a "change of heart" and has repented. What I can't understand is why anyone who espouses the view that opposition to gay marriage is akin to the most heinous racial bigotry could possibly have voted for Barack Obama in 2008. I'm a pretty reliable GOP voter, b…

Opposing something right because it's politically convenient isn't any more ethically defensible than opposing something you truly disagree with. You, as liberals tend to do, are giving Obama a pass -- he can't not do the right thing, by your logic.

I suspect that many Republicans nominally against gay marriage are privately for it, but the political ramifications for saying so would be much graver for an older, whiter and more religious constituency. Do we give them a pass, too?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#455

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

Aloha wrote: post #221
cglee wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why people always bring up "freedom of speech" in these types of scenarios. You can say what you want without going to jail; that's freedom of speech. It doesn't mean you won't feel social consequences.

I'm an openly gay male, I came out at 15. Why should there be social or employment consequences - in my mind this is just as bad as when employers fire employees for being gay.

The main point here is the notion of protected class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class In the United States protected classes are predominately traits upon which the individual has no control over (the notable exception being religion, pregnancy, and veteran status which are present because of constitutional and social value reasoning). Because of this line of logic egalitarians in this country support moving sexual preference as a protected class. Holding opinions (for whatever reason, you don't get to hide behind religion on that one) is on you and if that causes your employer to look bad or runs against what they stand for it is perfectly reasonable to expect to be let go.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#456

Post by matthewmacleod »

angersock wrote: post #365
matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on the other hand we just showed that when a mob on the Internet wants something - they get it. I don't think that this follows. In this particular case, someone was promoted to a role which many felt was incompatible with his personal views; they made that known, and the person in question stepped down. That's kind of how things should work in a community enterprise. That said, I understand he's received wildly disp…

Here's the root of the issue: "many felt was incompatible with his personal views" Who all is "many" here? People at Mozilla? People in the tech industry? People who are LGBT? Angry people on the internet with nothing better to do than troll? People who actually were directly and personally affected by Eich's actions in donating, of which there are quite few compared to the number of people weighing in on this? It's…

People who actually were directly and personally affected by Eich's actions in donating, of which there are quite few compared to the number of people weighing in on this?

Is this the case? There are a whole bunch of LGBT people working at Mozilla, and in the wider tech community. On top of that, there are families and friends of these people, who while not being personally affected can certainly legitimately object to the damage done to their close peers.

I suspect that this affects more people than you are implying.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#457

Post by bruceb »

azakai wrote: post #208
Borogove wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were there actually threats? I just googled "Brendan Eich threat" and didn't see anything relevant.

There was at least one mozilla employee that reported on their blog that they received death threats when they blogged about support for the new CEO (despite initially conflicting feelings, the blogger is gay). I'm not linking to the blog because they might end up getting more abuse. When controversial stuff like this happens, it is sadly common to receive death threats on the internet. Given that employees merely vo…

Why would you not link to it? It is a public blog it is meant to be read. Respectful your point makes no logically sense. You think the HN crowd is the youtube crowd? Is it this one: http://incisive.nu/2014/thinking-about-mozilla/

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#459

Post by dalke »

Aloha wrote: post #221
cglee wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why people always bring up "freedom of speech" in these types of scenarios. You can say what you want without going to jail; that's freedom of speech. It doesn't mean you won't feel social consequences.

I'm an openly gay male, I came out at 15. Why should there be social or employment consequences - in my mind this is just as bad as when employers fire employees for being gay.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/10/speech-and-consequences/ describes it well:

> Speech is designed to invoke private and social consequences, whether the speech is "venti mocha no whip, please," or "I love you," or "fuck off." The private and social consequences of your speech — whether they come from a barista, or your spouse, or people online, or people at whom you shout on the street — represent the free speech and freedom of association of others.

> Yet people often confuse these categories.

I believe you are making the same confusion between the right of free speech - Eich can support a political position - and the freedom of association so employees of Mozilla and OKCupid need not be associated with a company that has Eich at its head. (In the employees' case, the right to quit.)

There can be and is a tension there. As a country we have said that the right of free association is limited while at work, and that certain factors - race, religion, country of origin, etc. - cannot be used to discriminate between employees. But other factors, like disrupting the office every hour on the hour for a boisterous rendition of the National Anthem, can be grounds for punitive action.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#460

Post by icebraining »

matthewn wrote: post #422
icebraining wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All rights are subject to majority vote. Or subject to the majority, anyway.

No, rights are manifestly NOT subject to a vote. That is why they are called rights .

Reality disagrees.
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