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Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

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Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#451

Post by WillAdams »

ericd wrote: post #444
WillAdams wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a school in rural Mississippi which was next to an Air Force Base and filled primarily w/ children of base personnel --- apparently it was changed away from that shortly after my father retired, I had thought because of legal challenges, but that was from the uncertain organic memory of 10 year old me of half a century ago.

Dang, ah well. Thanks for answering, anyway.

With the wide variety of charter schools which were set up, I'm surprised it wasn't tried --- I would really like to see this educational mechanism revisited and re-tried --- seems like a good fit for remote learning (remote classes are academic and done at ability level, in-person classes are social and done by age level w/ peers.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#452

Post by AngryData »

nxm wrote: post #191
dv_dt wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student university edication shouldn't even be a loan. The vast majority of student loans are financed by the government itself. The US spends trillions procuring defense (or war), it should also procure an educated workforce without saddling the citizenry with all the extra red tape and misery of collecting back a loan

Well someone has to do it as its bulk of NATO’s funding. It also should not waste tax payer’s money of worthless degrees

What does the US spend towards NATO that it wouldn't spend if NATO didn't exist?

The US has as many aircraft carriers as the entire rest of the world combined, and thats not because NATO requested it. Nor does NATO demand the US produce 20 million dollar a piece missles.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#453

Post by thisislife2 »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #333
class3shock wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The purpose of a college degree is NOT a job" Check the marketing literature for any college and you will find that is not true. The only people doing degrees for knowledge and prestige are the filthy rich and while they may make up a significant percentage of students at the top 5 schools, they make up a tiny percentage of all college students. The last point is where I end up aswell though and I think no matter ho…

> The only people doing degrees for knowledge and prestige are the filthy rich and while they may make up a significant percentage of students at the top 5 schools, they make up a tiny percentage of all college students. I already wrote it quite some times on HN: at least in Germany, where university is rather cheap, the situation is typically different: - The really rich kids will typically have a "career on rails",…

That is interesting! Wish more countries emulated the German education system as affordable education (and healthcare) is a basic necessity and a human right. I especially like the German vocational training "earn and learn" programs - not just the paid internship part but also how the course content is 20-30% theory and 70-80% practical. India, in association with the Indo-German business chamber, has now started offering similar vocational programs. One major difference though is that in India, this is formatted like our 3 year Diploma engineering courses ( https://articles.findmycollege.com/diploma-courses-polytechn... ). Thus, after getting a Diploma, one can also aspire to complete a Bachelors in Engineering in 3 years (i.e. if you have a Diploma, you can skip the first year and directly join the second year of the respective engineering course). I was surprised that Germany doesn't offer a similar pathway to a Bachelors in Engineering for its vocational program students.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#454

Post by foco_tubi »

someguydave wrote: post #439
dragonwriter wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of a college degree is NOT a job... but the purpose of a college LOAN is 100% a job, and it's very important to differentiate between the two. No, the purpose of a college loan is to enable a student to pay for college with future earnings. It can be perfectly rational even if the loan/degree doesn't improve job prospects (and even more especially so if it doesn’t “improve” them in a purely financial se…

But also the taxpayers and dollar holders have a right to ask for good management of their taxes and savings

Individually-scoped education is objectively a good national investment

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#455

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

bruce511 wrote: post #71
dataflow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless a program has a habit of sending the majority of its undergrads into PhDs, that part might not be so hard to resolve -- just exclude everyone who does that from the measurement sample.

Who decides who should be included or excluded from the statistics? The govt? In this era of open hostility to institutions that won't toe the line? Who are looking for ways to punish what they don't like? Or perhaps the college? If they decide then can they pick and choose who goes into what statistic? Does a drop-out (like say Bill Gates) get included or excluded? Do we even accept the premise, that education's sol…

We took a random subset of the football team who graduated and went pro. College is looking like a fantastic investment!

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#456

Post by arealaccount »

AngryData wrote: post #408
Aurornis wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what is the interest rate on those credit card offers? Is it the low single digits of a student loan which is not easily dischargeable? Or is it 18-30% like you’d expect from a loan where the recipient can discharge it more easily? This proves the point.

Why would it matter if I just declared bankruptcy?

I think they’re saying people do do it, which is why the rates are high

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#457

Post by dataflow »

dataflow wrote: post #14

> If a program cannot show that it leaves its graduates financially better off than if they had never enrolled, it should not be underwritten by federal taxpayers Wouldn't this punish a huge number of students who struggle academically, by comparing them against better-achievers who simply skipped school? The two populations being compared are entirely different for a lot of schools. Just because the average student…

Another issue I don't see how to solve is: how do you even gather the data? That is: how do you even know if someone (a) is doing the same job as a graduate of your program would do, (b) actually skipped a program or its equivalent, and (c) is making more than a graduate of your program?

All of these are personal and private information. If I apply to a startup tomorrow and get hired without listing my engineering degree on my resume, then are they supposed to add me to some national database of uneducated engineers, list my compensation, and explain that they would've hired a graduate for the same role too? If I apply to another company and list my degree then is that gonna overwrite the database? How the heck would this actually work?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#458

Post by foco_tubi »

nradov wrote: post #432
treis wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't any practicing cardiology or nephrology which is the GP's point and my point.

Your point is simply wrong. Especially in underserved rural areas you'll often see primary care doctors delivering cardiology and nephrology treatments even though they lack board certification in those specialties. There are no certified specialists available so they make do. You guys need to expand your horizons a bit.

“Practicing” and providing maintenance care of a condition are two completely different concepts, and the point you replied to stands.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#459

Post by UncleMeat »

ndriscoll wrote: post #381
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many university (liberal arts even) educated Americans have read the Federalist Papers? The Declaration of Independence? The Constitution? To give a counterpoint: C. P. Snow. The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures (overview) > https://web.archive.org/web/20170508085255/https://www.rbkc....

I don't think that's really a counterpoint. My point was that I get the impression that even those in the humanities seem to be losing familiarity with liberal ideas. So it's even worse now (or we've just lied to ourselves as we pretend to expand access to higher education).

Where do you get this impression from? Faculty? Published research? My observation is that people working in the humanities have a deeper and wider reading list than at any point in prior history.

If you are complaining about students then I don't see what the problem is with not having read these particular texts. The humanities is so incredibly wide and it is good that we have widened curricula to not just focus everybody down a particular reading list of western intellectual tradition. A humanities education isn't there to just pump out classical liberals.

A polisci major who studies ancient chinese politics or 21st century dictatorships is just as legitimate as somebody who studies Locke and western liberal democracy.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#460

Post by ericd »

WillAdams wrote: post #451
ericd wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang, ah well. Thanks for answering, anyway.

With the wide variety of charter schools which were set up, I'm surprised it wasn't tried --- I would really like to see this educational mechanism revisited and re-tried --- seems like a good fit for remote learning (remote classes are academic and done at ability level, in-person classes are social and done by age level w/ peers.

Yeah, good point, especially at the higher levels. Our public high school offered differential equations as the level after calc only because they randomly had a really exceptionally capable math teacher who was a teacher as a passion project after he'd made his money elsewhere, but most schools don't have access to that sort of capability. Remote learning could offer that sort of headroom in every subject. I guess local colleges sometimes offer that ability.

Maybe some charters do, I'm definitely not an expert.

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